Clean Car Upgrade programme - new scrap-and-replace trial

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#2915957 19-May-2022 13:28

gzt:
GV27: A lot of the old Priussi are four seaters, I think? A five seat Prius is a relatively new development at least for the current model.

As far as I'm aware all Prius models from 2004 are five seats total. NZ market Prius Alpha Wagon variation was an exception with 7 seats.

There's also a Toyota hybrid passenger van built on the same tech similar in size to Estima. Alphard. Between 7 and 9 total seats depending on model if I recall correctly.

Odd, maybe the generational changeover with four seats was just the American market?

https://www.auto123.com/en/news/2020-toyota-prius-prime-improvements-5-seats/65867/

Obraik

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#2915968 19-May-2022 14:00

tdgeek:

Surely not. The opening post in this thread had a link that states "A similar scheme in California has seen more than 10,000 Californians scrap their old, dirty cars and replace them with cleaner alternatives such as new and used zero-emission, plug-in hybrid, or hybrid cars."

Similar scheme, but if its only new that's pretty stupid. A 15k used EV/Hybrid even with a 10k subsidy is a stretch for many lower income families. If its new only then its just a nice option for those that can already afford a modern car. But oh, you have to be lower income too, so you cant afford a new car anyway!

Surely was a slip of the tongue

I suspect it was. There are no new EVs under $45k.

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MikeAqua

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#2915972 19-May-2022 14:04

tdgeek:

MikeAqua:

Robertson was on RNZ jut before 6am this morning and he clarified that the grant is for: -

New cars
That cost under $35k
That are less than 8 years old
Yeah/nah, you what now ...?

Surely not. The opening post in this thread had a link that states "A similar scheme in California has seen more than 10,000 Californians scrap their old, dirty cars and replace them with cleaner alternatives such as new and used zero-emission, plug-in hybrid, or hybrid cars."

Similar scheme, but if its only new that's pretty stupid. A 15k used EV/Hybrid even with a 10k subsidy is a stretch for many lower income families. If its new only then its just a nice option for those that can already afford a modern car. But oh, you have to be lower income too, so you cant afford a new car anyway!

Surely was a slip of the tongue

I suspect he really meant "new to them" but that's not what he said ...

I was driving to work, so hopefully I was awake enough to hear clearly.

Mike

Scott3

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#2915989 19-May-2022 15:09

GV27:

Odd, maybe the generational changeover with four seats was just the American market?

https://www.auto123.com/en/news/2020-toyota-prius-prime-improvements-5-seats/65867/

It was only the Prius prime (The plug in version of the 4th gen prius that was a 4 seater). i.e:

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/toyota/prius/listing/3601834968

Not a very common car.

Assume the 2020 change linked to above means that after a change over date, they are all 5 seaters globally, but I couldn't find an NZ example.

To my Knowledge, all the rest of the common Toyota hybrids are 5 or more seat cars. Any one I have ever been in has been.

Scott3

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#2915993 19-May-2022 15:31

tdgeek:

Surely was a slip of the tongue

Yeah. "New" clearly doesn't mean the same as "less than 8 years old".

Likely the word "Modern" or "Newish" would have portrayed the correct message. Potentially could have also been "New to the NZ fleet".

It seems pretty clear to me that the vast majority of the car's people upgrade to will be 5 - 8 year old Toyota hybrids (ex-japan).

When the $10k is stacked with the fresh import rebate (Cira $3k on an Aqua), households meeting the criteria will be able to upgrade to a 2014 aqua for zero cost. As long as you are OK with a smaller car, this is quite an attractive offer, especially if your current car has issues, or is approach some expensive maintenance (i.e. cambelt change, new tires needed etc.).

Car's like the Camry hybrid, Estima hybrid, feilder hybrid, Prius will requre a fairly modest (sub $10k top up).

Personally I see relatively few households with incomes under $75k, getting close to $35k limit. Perhaps some retirees taking the opportunity to take the $10k and get a brand new Yaris / Corolla hybrid, of a used import 40kWh leaf.

Suspect EV's / PHEV's will make up well under 1/4 of the scheme.

tdgeek

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#2916029 19-May-2022 17:38

Scott3:

Yeah. "New" clearly doesn't mean the same as "less than 8 years old".

Likely the word "Modern" or "Newish" would have portrayed the correct message. Potentially could have also been "New to the NZ fleet".

It seems pretty clear to me that the vast majority of the car's people upgrade to will be 5 - 8 year old Toyota hybrids (ex-japan).

When the $10k is stacked with the fresh import rebate (Cira $3k on an Aqua), households meeting the criteria will be able to upgrade to a 2014 aqua for zero cost. As long as you are OK with a smaller car, this is quite an attractive offer, especially if your current car has issues, or is approach some expensive maintenance (i.e. cambelt change, new tires needed etc.).

Car's like the Camry hybrid, Estima hybrid, feilder hybrid, Prius will requre a fairly modest (sub $10k top up).

Personally I see relatively few households with incomes under $75k, getting close to $35k limit. Perhaps some retirees taking the opportunity to take the $10k and get a brand new Yaris / Corolla hybrid, of a used import 40kWh leaf.

Suspect EV's / PHEV's will make up well under 1/4 of the scheme.

Need to wait for the full details I guess. The trial probably isnt a bad idea as I doubt there is a flood of choices right now, but as the evolving EV/PHEV market ages, there should be

Geektastic

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#2916174 19-May-2022 21:33

tdgeek:

Scott3:

Yeah. "New" clearly doesn't mean the same as "less than 8 years old".

Likely the word "Modern" or "Newish" would have portrayed the correct message. Potentially could have also been "New to the NZ fleet".

It seems pretty clear to me that the vast majority of the car's people upgrade to will be 5 - 8 year old Toyota hybrids (ex-japan).

When the $10k is stacked with the fresh import rebate (Cira $3k on an Aqua), households meeting the criteria will be able to upgrade to a 2014 aqua for zero cost. As long as you are OK with a smaller car, this is quite an attractive offer, especially if your current car has issues, or is approach some expensive maintenance (i.e. cambelt change, new tires needed etc.).

Car's like the Camry hybrid, Estima hybrid, feilder hybrid, Prius will requre a fairly modest (sub $10k top up).

Personally I see relatively few households with incomes under $75k, getting close to $35k limit. Perhaps some retirees taking the opportunity to take the $10k and get a brand new Yaris / Corolla hybrid, of a used import 40kWh leaf.

Suspect EV's / PHEV's will make up well under 1/4 of the scheme.

Need to wait for the full details I guess. The trial probably isnt a bad idea as I doubt there is a flood of choices right now, but as the evolving EV/PHEV market ages, there should be

Isn't there likely to be an issue with people buying older EV's etc that are about the age to need battery replacement?

"Here's your new(er) car - oh and by the way, we can install a new battery for just another $5,000...."

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Wheelbarrow01

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#2916237 20-May-2022 00:00

Geektastic:

Can they afford to repair the $140,000 European executive sedan they hit? Never mind whether they bother insuring their own car, what about the risk to other peoples cars? Or, indeed, other people.

Yea that's why I mentioned that some are smart enough to at least have 3rd party cover.

tdgeek

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#2916243 20-May-2022 06:38

Geektastic:

Isn't there likely to be an issue with people buying older EV's etc that are about the age to need battery replacement?

"Here's your new(er) car - oh and by the way, we can install a new battery for just another $5,000...."

IIRC the range would decline to say 80% after a number of years, so I dont think thats an issue.

GV27

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#2916247 20-May-2022 07:04

Scott3:

It was only the Prius prime (The plug in version of the 4th gen prius that was a 4 seater). i.e:

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/toyota/prius/listing/3601834968

Not a very common car.

Assume the 2020 change linked to above means that after a change over date, they are all 5 seaters globally, but I couldn't find an NZ example.

There's plenty of these floating around Japan, although I'm guessing they'll have limited appeal to NZ so may never make it here.

Sad really, because by this point the only thing the Prius wasn't doing right was the back-seat thing and the wonky gear selector - otherwise it had transformed into a pretty useful car and the plug/normalied looks were a big part of that.

alasta

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#2916310 20-May-2022 08:40

tdgeek:

Geektastic:

Isn't there likely to be an issue with people buying older EV's etc that are about the age to need battery replacement?

"Here's your new(er) car - oh and by the way, we can install a new battery for just another $5,000...."

IIRC the range would decline to say 80% after a number of years, so I dont think thats an issue.

I'm sure one of the EV enthusiasts on here will correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the capacity decline on lithium ion batteries is not linear. iPhones, for example, need to have their batteries replaced when they hit 80% capacity because they can't continue to operate reliably beyond that point.

Handsomedan

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#2916321 20-May-2022 09:01

alasta:

I'm sure one of the EV enthusiasts on here will correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the capacity decline on lithium ion batteries is not linear. iPhones, for example, need to have their batteries replaced when they hit 80% capacity because they can't continue to operate reliably beyond that point.

This has always been my understanding too. But I do base this on the example given - a mobile phone.

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Obraik

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#2916357 20-May-2022 09:41

alasta:

I'm sure one of the EV enthusiasts on here will correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the capacity decline on lithium ion batteries is not linear. iPhones, for example, need to have their batteries replaced when they hit 80% capacity because they can't continue to operate reliably beyond that point.

An iPhone battery only has one cell. An EV has many hundreds of cells, which the degradation is spread over. So a Leaf might have 60% SoH for the whole pack, but each cell is not that low. There will be a point where yes, the battery is effectively dead but I haven't heard of even a Leaf getting to that point yet.

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Handsomedan

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#2916360 20-May-2022 09:45

Obraik:

alasta:

I'm sure one of the EV enthusiasts on here will correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the capacity decline on lithium ion batteries is not linear. iPhones, for example, need to have their batteries replaced when they hit 80% capacity because they can't continue to operate reliably beyond that point.

An iPhone battery only has one cell. An EV has many hundreds of cells, which the degradation is spread over. So a Leaf might have 60% SoH for the whole pack, but each cell is not that low. There will be a point where yes, the battery is effectively dead but I haven't heard of even a Leaf getting to that point yet.

In your example, though: The Leaf has 60% SoH - assumedly, the average driver will get a maximum of 60% of the range compared to new?

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Obraik

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#2916364 20-May-2022 09:51

Handsomedan:

In your example, though: The Leaf has 60% SoH - assumedly, the average driver will get a maximum of 60% of the range compared to new?

That's correct. In an EV, the side effect of a lower SoH is loss of range, whereas in a phone this would also result in lower power output.

That's why low SoH Leaf still sell - not everyone needs the range the Leaf had even when it was new; a Leaf at 60% is plenty for what many need a commuter to do.

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