RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

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#3127353 13-Sep-2023 18:26

tdgeek:

If its a hybrid, its a hybrid, plug in or not. So they join EV's /Diesel and pay RUC on mileage, they can claim their fuel back which is a process that is in place now

Nope. A non plug-in hybrid gets all of its motive power from its petrol tank. It is just an efficient ICE vehicle. You may as well apply it to cars with turbos, because they are more efficient as well.

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mattwnz

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#3127355 13-Sep-2023 18:28

tdgeek:

mattwnz:

It says the market share in the last period were flat for PHEVS, which corresponds to a far wider range of EVs now being available within the last year. Including a range of far cheaper EVs such as the MG4, although this may change with the removal of the CCR. I was speaking to a new car dealer about PHEVs, and he was saying that they were the worst of both worlds and that they were more about looking efficient on paper, but there is no requirement for PHEV owners to actually plug them in and use them as an EV, so they could be far less efficient as a result. Whereas EVs must be plugged in to use them.

Flat? The light blue is up year on year, as it was also for 2022 to 2023

If someone bought a PHEV and doesnt bother plugging them in there are a fool.

It says 'market share' as a % was flat, where as EV sales are growing in market sahre. So I can't think why PHEV sales as a % of market share would increase from now on.

HarmLessSolutions

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#3127357 13-Sep-2023 18:36

tdgeek:

mattwnz:

It says the market share in the last period were flat for PHEVS, which corresponds to a far wider range of EVs now being available within the last year. Including a range of far cheaper EVs such as the MG4, although this may change with the removal of the CCR. I was speaking to a new car dealer about PHEVs, and he was saying that they were the worst of both worlds and that they were more about looking efficient on paper, but there is no requirement for PHEV owners to actually plug them in and use them as an EV, so they could be far less efficient as a result. Whereas EVs must be plugged in to use them.

Flat? The light blue is up year on year, as it was also for 2022 to 2023

If someone bought a PHEV and doesnt bother plugging them in there are a fool.

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MikeB4

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#3127369 13-Sep-2023 18:58

In an average week we plug our PHEV twice and we fill out fuel tank with compost juice once or twice a month.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

PolicyGuy

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#3127376 13-Sep-2023 19:30

networkn:

The poverty trap has a couple of horrible unintended consequences:

Low Income = usually older, less safe, possibly less well maintained vehicle to start with > big bill for RUC > no warrant or registration > fines + no insurance.

End result == far more old cars with no warrant, registration, or insurance and lots of low income people with fines they can't pay, feeling alienated.

This is pretty much the worst-case scenario and pretty much the guaranteed outcome.

This would be (will be?) a very bad outcome indeed, compounded by the fact that many of the people affected have relatively little access to IT systems, even web-based ones, either through lack of familiarity with how to do it, or because all they have is poor mobile-based access.

To avoid it, we would have to have a mechanism which is as easy to use and has as low or lower transaction costs than the existing petrol tax system.
At the very least, people would need to be able to buy RUCs in small quantities - say 100km or 250km - at supermarkets, convenience stores & service stations in the same transaction as their petrol or groceries, like you buy a "$20 top up for my Vodafone pre-pay"

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#3127379 13-Sep-2023 19:53

Dingbatt:

tdgeek:

If its a hybrid, its a hybrid, plug in or not. So they join EV's /Diesel and pay RUC on mileage, they can claim their fuel back which is a process that is in place now

Nope. A non plug-in hybrid gets all of its motive power from its petrol tank. It is just an efficient ICE vehicle. You may as well apply it to cars with turbos, because they are more efficient as well.

I accept that. Charge RUC on BEV/PHEV and we use the existing process for that and excise refunds.

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#3127381 13-Sep-2023 19:57

@tdgeek we have a PHEV, we pay road taxes now.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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#3127382 13-Sep-2023 20:04

tdgeek:

mattwnz:

It says the market share in the last period were flat for PHEVS, which corresponds to a far wider range of EVs now being available within the last year. Including a range of far cheaper EVs such as the MG4, although this may change with the removal of the CCR. I was speaking to a new car dealer about PHEVs, and he was saying that they were the worst of both worlds and that they were more about looking efficient on paper, but there is no requirement for PHEV owners to actually plug them in and use them as an EV, so they could be far less efficient as a result. Whereas EVs must be plugged in to use them.

Flat? The light blue is up year on year, as it was also for 2022 to 2023

If someone bought a PHEV and doesnt bother plugging them in there are a fool.

Or it's a work vehicle and work is picking up the tab so they just don't care about plugging it in.

Read something saying PHEV are the worse - they're heavy, they consume resources with the larger battery pack, and most are still running on petrol.

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#3127386 13-Sep-2023 20:29

Yes that is the car dealers argument that I spoke to. I have however driven the new PHEV Mazda MX60 and it is a great vehicle with great acceleration for a Mazda. But I can see how if it was used as a work vehicle many wouldn't bother plugging it in, yet it still gets a rebate. Where a hybrid wouldn't get the rebate

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#3127392 13-Sep-2023 20:39

Some people seem to be going down rabbit holes about PHEVs. RUC for all vehicles seems to be the best solution across all vehicle types.

Other posters have talked about the current system with its current weight classifications and admin costs but surely a total revamp of the RUC regime will be required where these are all addressed. Let's not apply the current rules against a future operating model.

So we now have an opportunity which should address the requirements of all of the community including the ability to pay incrementally and that should be grasped

everettpsycho

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#3127394 13-Sep-2023 20:44

logo:

Or it's a work vehicle and work is picking up the tab so they just don't care about plugging it in.

Read something saying PHEV are the worse - they're heavy, they consume resources with the larger battery pack, and most are still running on petrol.

Not only is work picking up the tab with a fuel card to pay it, they probably also haven't got a process for staff with an ev to charge at home and bill their power usage back to the company. A former employer of mine decided to give a staff member an ev but not method to on charge his power use if he charged at home, they also didn't have chargers in their car park. So the guy had to park down the road at new world and walk to the office a couple of times a week to be able to get around with the company paying. Someone like evnex really should try and find a way to bill your company if the power being used is for their vehicle and the companies should be passing some of the savings from not using the petrol card on to the staff member.

PHEVs are absolutely the big problem with these changes, o don't foresee them spying to be reimbursed being a viable solution, but they can't get off without paying if other EVs start getting charged. Definitely needs to be a complete rethink and just charging every $76 for 1000km isn't a solution otherwise we are going backwards on cutting emissions and big vehicles suddenly ost almost as much as a hybrid. I'm not against paying for my ev to be on the road at all but a universal charge based on mileage somehow for all owners is the only fair way to find the roads but I suspect an emissions tax will also be brought in on petrol to replace some of the price cut. That should really go towards something like public transport though.

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HarmLessSolutions

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#3127400 13-Sep-2023 21:10

PHEVs have hijacked the topic because they are the biggest and most obvious loophole for change to the RUC system to include EVs. The real issue is that vehicles are increasingly becoming more fuel efficient and as a result the tax take from a fuel excise based charge is reducing. In other words our hybrid (FET on petrol, distance for diesel) RUC system is becoming increasingly less fit for purpose (in funding the roading network). The most logical fix is to levy the charge on all road going vehicles on a distance and weight basis.

That being the case it's now just a matter of making that transition as seamless and accessible to all vehicle owners. It sounds like the governmental discussions in progress to design the new system are aware of electronic means of monitoring, charging and collecting this tax are available so it's just a matter of now waiting to see how good a job they do of it. A potential change of government before year's end probably won't help in this regard unfortunately but the timing is what it is.

Overlaid on the collection of road funding is the issue of decarbonising our national vehicle fleet which is probably best accomplished by keeping that seperate from RUCs. A review of the existing carbon tax on fossil fuels is best suited for doing this and this will also correct any inequities in taxation levels benefitting larger engined ICE vehicles by disincentivising their use including prompting laggard PHEV owners to make use of their plug in functionality.

The new system cannot avoid upsetting various sectors of the driving and car owning public but hopefully we end up with a sensible fit for purpose tax collection system/s as a result.

Also can the mods get rid of the apostrophes in the thread title. They don't present well on what is a forum populated by what is supposed to be educated people.

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MikeB4

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#3127406 13-Sep-2023 21:22

The best tax regime is one that has the lowest cost of collection. Add complications such as weight and distance charging just results in inefficiencies and less gain. Abolish all RUCs and increase general taxation or GST to fund road and infrastructure costs

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

andysh

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#3127422 13-Sep-2023 21:44

MikeB4: The best tax regime is one that has the lowest cost of collection. Add complications such as weight and distance charging just results in inefficiencies and less gain. Abolish all RUCs and increase general taxation or GST to fund road and infrastructure costs

I second this with a tweak. I think the heaviest of vehicles should pay for RUCs as they contribute the most to road damage. Also most of these are businesses that can have processes around paying for it. Also, as RUCs are a consumption based tax, it disadvantages the less well off the most.

Secondly, I would like to see a 'green' tax on energy (petrol, electricity, diesel) based on CO2 / pollutant levels, so those that use the most in 'dirty' energy pay the most in tax to help move to cleaner energy. Understand this goes against my first point around a consumption tax, but would like to see this in as a behaviour tax.

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mattwnz

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#3127452 13-Sep-2023 23:30

MikeB4: The best tax regime is one that has the lowest cost of collection. Add complications such as weight and distance charging just results in inefficiencies and less gain. Abolish all RUCs and increase general taxation or GST to fund road and infrastructure costs

But then NZ would need to have another tax, such as capital gains tax, as we can't collect enough in tax from GST and income tax etc, and National want to cut income tax, not increase it. The current argument is that it is unfair to tax wage earners, but not to tax capital gains on things such as investmnet homes, desipite many investors of rental homes relying on that tax free capital gain to fund their retirement. Most other countries have a CGT but not NZ. Then we have the additional confusion a 'Wealth Tax' which is nothing like a Capital gain s tax. They get banded around together in NZ, but they aren't the same thing. So it would be impossible to fund roads through general taxes without new taxes such as a CGT. Petrol tax is also a fir tax, but not when many vehicles don't use petrol. RUCs are fair but there needs to be an efficient way to do them. Then do we also tax other users of the road such as cyclists? There hasn't really been any discussion in NZs media abut this. We are really let down in NZ with our media and it is so dumbed down.

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