Electric vehicles

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#1325124 15-Jun-2015 15:51

MikeB4: Yet no one has answered this which I ask in a civil manner "Can I ask why do people think it is such a bad thing that EV's are fitted with a device that will emit a low volume sound to save lives?"
I also ask you consider this in association with my comment that it is not just for crossing roads but also carparks, parks etc

We now have a significant number of vehicles on the road which are quite silent with the Prius (especially with all the taxis in Wellington) being quite common. Unless there was to be a rule requiring all quiet vehicles to make a pedestrian noise then I think it can lead to a sense of false security - I heard than one but the silent one behind hit me.

While I have sympathy with this issue (and have nearly been hit myself), as others have posted the world is changing, and I think overall vehicles have now got so quiet that to only pick on EVs would be wrong. Perhaps start another thread on pedestrian noise generators for all quiet vehicles - that might be more appropriate.

shk292

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#1325127 15-Jun-2015 15:56

Bottom line - vehicles are dangerous, and many are quiet. You need to watch out for them. If you aren't able to do this, cross where assistance is available yes roads are dangerous and crossing where there is assistance is desirable but not always possible for the disabled and
of course all drivers obey their responsibilities at controlled crossing. But what about carparks, Parks, etc or should the disabled not go there at all.

Well, no, if it isn't safe for them due to the nature of their impairment/abilities. Everyone needs to balance their abilities against the risks present

IMHO, EVs are not a "game changer" in terms of vehicle noise - there are many vehicles which are too quiet at low speed to be reliably heard and nobody, disabled or otherwise, should be relying on hearing to remain safe in an area where vehicle movements occur. The safety gain to be made by adding noise generators to EVs - and be extension all vehicles, if you want to be safe - is not justified by the cost and the noise pollution. If they are loud enough to be effective (especially by people with less than perfect hearing) then they would be loud enough to be annoying in an environment such as a park.

I hate to use the "slippery slope" argument, but if you mandate noise generators for EVs, would you by extension:
- specify minimum noise levels at a range of speeds for all vehicles
- make it illegal to coast in neutral
- mandate noise generators for cyclists
- make it illegal for pedestrians to wear headphones

Just my opinion though

Sideface

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#1325128 15-Jun-2015 15:57

I recently saw a documentary about industrial automation in Japan.
A huge unmanned warehouse was run by a master computer, and the lifting and laying was done by a fleet of battery-powered robotic (driver-less) fork-lift trucks.

Each vehicle had a flashing red light on top, and a sound system blaring out Chinese Opera very loudly (yes, really).

Great for warehouses - not so great in suburbia.

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MikeB4

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#1325129 15-Jun-2015 15:57

dwl:
MikeB4: Yet no one has answered this which I ask in a civil manner "Can I ask why do people think it is such a bad thing that EV's are fitted with a device that will emit a low volume sound to save lives?"
I also ask you consider this in association with my comment that it is not just for crossing roads but also carparks, parks etc

We now have a significant number of vehicles on the road which are quite silent with the Prius (especially with all the taxis in Wellington) being quite common. Unless there was to be a rule requiring all quiet vehicles to make a pedestrian noise then I think it can lead to a sense of false security - I heard than one but the silent one behind hit me.

While I have sympathy with this issue (and have nearly been hit myself), as others have posted the world is changing, and I think overall vehicles have now got so quiet that to only pick on EVs would be wrong. Perhaps start another thread on pedestrian noise generators for all quiet vehicles - that might be more appropriate.

I agree re quiet cars mine is very quiet but it is audible at low speed eg Carpark, where as EV may not be if running on the motors and not the engine. So it may well be that low speed (0km/h to 60km/h) audible warning is fitted to all vehicles.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

frankv

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#1325130 15-Jun-2015 15:57

Whatever 'distinctive' noise will be annoying, no matter what. The whole point of it is to get someone's attention. There will be lots of people who don't want to be continually attention-got. Hence the limitation on car noise in WoF tests.

But why not go for some other technology.... an RF transmitter, for example. Blind (or otherwise sensorily impaired) people could carry a receiver which would buzz, beep, or whatever.

The noise generator thing is going to be moot anyway... cars will be driverless, and it will be the car's responsibility to sense and avoid the pedestrian, not vice versa.

MikeB4

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#1325132 15-Jun-2015 16:00

frankv: Whatever 'distinctive' noise will be annoying, no matter what. The whole point of it is to get someone's attention. There will be lots of people who don't want to be continually attention-got. Hence the limitation on car noise in WoF tests.

But why not go for some other technology.... an RF transmitter, for example. Blind (or otherwise sensorily impaired) people could carry a receiver which would buzz, beep, or whatever.

The noise generator thing is going to be moot anyway... cars will be driverless, and it will be the car's responsibility to sense and avoid the pedestrian, not vice versa.

I don't know why but I just have a feeling driverless cars is going to end badly

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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dwl

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#1325141 15-Jun-2015 16:12

@ Scott3: some good points and great to hear from another EV enthusiast

Scott3: I quite like the Outlander PHEV. It is priced quire sharply and I see quite a few around. For some reason they have reduced the braked tow rating in NZ to 750Kg despite it being 1500kg in Europe and Austraila.

I spoke with a dealer today (who has previously talked to me about whether this was a problem for me which it is) and apparently the reason for the reduction here was a road trip through the North Island with a full 1500 kg behind caused a few occasions where it started to ask for a "rest". The load of propelling the car up long rises plus maybe trying to charge the battery was an issue. The vehicle still seems to be the same one that has a 1500 kg tow rating overseas but Mitsubishi don't want to disappoint if it can't pull that load up long hills. It may be safe enough with the 1500 kg load and cope most of the time.

Scott3: Kinda a bit hard to implement when you can plug your EV in through the kitchen window next to the toaster, unless you want to tax road user charges on toaster use also...

I think the current RUC system is a better choice. (petrol) PHEV's will get taxed twice, once on the total KM's they drive, and again on any petrol they use. Not really fair, but given that we would expect 80% odd of travel to be on electric not really a deal breaker to screw their economics. Kinda in the same category as charging road user petrol tax on chainsaw, petrol generator, and private boat fuel use.

There is already ability to claim back the road tax part of the petrol cost if used elsewhere so maybe a EV or PHEV running full RUC off an odometer can be considered qualifying as well. I would hate to think that users who might only get 50% EV and 50% petrol would end up paying that much. Luckily this isn't an issue until after 2020 (assuming no extension of exemption).

heylinb4nz

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#1325143 15-Jun-2015 16:13

My vote for a distinctive noise would be to have some nice weatherproof amplified speakers hidden on the front and rear of the car that mimicked the natural sound of car that we all know.

ie front speaker = engine noise, rear speaker = exhaust

Wouldn't it be cool if you could load engine noises into the system (Rotary, V6, Straight 6, Boxer, V8, V12)

Cost to manufacturer should be able to be kept under $1000 (not much more for a $35,000+ car)

$500 speakers
$350 amp
$150 for throttle\gear data controller

Mark

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#1325181 15-Jun-2015 16:21

heylinb4nz: My vote for a distinctive noise would be to have some nice weatherproof amplified speakers hidden on the front and rear of the car that mimicked the natural sound of car that we all know.

ie front speaker = engine noise, rear speaker = exhaust

Wouldn't it be cool if you could load engine noises into the system (Rotary, V6, Straight 6, Boxer, V8, V12)

Cost to manufacturer should be able to be kept under $1000 (not much more for a $35,000+ car)

$500 speakers
$350 amp
$150 for throttle\gear data controller

Doesn't look too bad I suppose ?

qyiet

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#1325193 15-Jun-2015 16:34

Mark:

Doesn't look too bad I suppose ?

Hmm.. I'm beginning to be swayed on this issue.. possibly this isn't so bad :)

Warning: reality may differ from above post

andrew027

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#1325197 15-Jun-2015 16:39

heylinb4nz: My vote for a distinctive noise would be to have some nice weatherproof amplified speakers hidden on the front and rear of the car that mimicked the natural sound of car that we all know.

ie front speaker = engine noise, rear speaker = exhaust

Wouldn't it be cool if you could load engine noises into the system (Rotary, V6, Straight 6, Boxer, V8, V12)

Cost to manufacturer should be able to be kept under $1000 (not much more for a $35,000+ car)

$500 speakers
$350 amp
$150 for throttle\gear data controller

Or, basically what they do now?

My two cents worth on EVs generally:

I think they're a great idea and I'd love one. But if I am going to be completely honest, I wouldn't buy one if it is seriously inconvenient to me, for example, if:

it's a lot more expensive than a petrol powered vehicle of a similar class
it restricts where I can drive (e.g. living in Wellington and visiting family in the Wairarapa, Manawatu, Hawkes Bay and Auckland)
it restricts how I drive (e.g. staying at lower speeds to preserve battery life)
there is a lack of charging stations in places where I would need them
adds more to my monthly power bill than the equivalent of buying a tank of gas every 10 days or so
maintenance (or battery replacement, etc.) costs are prohibitive,
etc...

I'm sure that there are plenty of people in the world who just commute to work and back, and tootle around their local town in the weekends, but having a vehicle plays a major part in a lot of the things I do with my life. When EVs are more on a par with petrol vehicles, I'll happily buy one, and I suspect quite a few New Zealanders (if not most people in the world) would feel the same way.

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kemosabe

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#1325199 15-Jun-2015 16:41

frankv: Whatever 'distinctive' noise will be annoying, no matter what. The whole point of it is to get someone's attention. There will be lots of people who don't want to be continually attention-got. Hence the limitation on car noise in WoF tests.

But why not go for some other technology.... an RF transmitter, for example. Blind (or otherwise sensorily impaired) people could carry a receiver which would buzz, beep, or whatever.

The noise generator thing is going to be moot anyway... cars will be driverless, and it will be the car's responsibility to sense and avoid the pedestrian, not vice versa.

Dont agree with adding sound to an EV. I dont think its directional enough and probably couldn't be heard in a strong wind. Then as soon as you add to EV, next up other quite cars will need it as well. Before we know it all cars have it and even the Blind wont have an idea what is coming from where at a busy location.

I could live with a better solution as mentioned by Franky where disabled can use a sensor to check for traffic, but would prefer to see something that is more directional, perhaps Infrared light, Laser or even ultrasonic? You could easily have a bluetooth/hearing aid style device worn by disabled that buzzed in their ear when they looked in a direction and there was traffic coming. That said, cannot see it happening for a long time even if it was cheap as.

@dwl: You mentioned an EV as a second car, and I do sort of agree, but think even in a second car your plans may change; i.e you need to take the second car out again and its got no charge left. From that perspective they are not economical. The Outlander is almost the flip side for me. I considered one but discounted for two reason; a) if you want to be economical, driving a 2.3 tone truck is not the place to start. b) I am not convinced they will hold their value well at all with new models being released in the next few years.

Give it 3 years, a home wind turbine and 5 seat PHEV hatchback with 75km range. That would suit me just fine.

dwl

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Ultimate Geek
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#1325201 15-Jun-2015 16:43

You would certainly see and hear this EV coming:

Nissan Turns e-NV200 Into Mobile Disco For UEFA Champions League Final

Jaxson

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#1325211 15-Jun-2015 17:07

trig42:

I wonder, can you use an EV as a UPS as well? Power goes down at home, plug in your car and keep the fridge/PC/TV going?

Yep, get yourself on a night rate / time of use tariff and suddenly you can charge at lower rates and use when costs would be higher to buy from the grid.

These concepts work well now, whilst there aren't many EV's, but fast forward to when say 50% or more of the fleet is via EV and you do have a load problem, even if the draw on any one vehicle recharging is minimal.

Right now if you are rich enough to buy an EV then it's worth it, especially if you can score free 'petrol' with organisations and councils wanting to appear green by giving you a recharge point in town/at work etc.

Still not a lot of discussion around what you do with spent batteries. Last I checked they're still not particularly nice/ clean green and cudly inside.

EV's are coming, and they are the way of the future, especially as 2nd cars for use around town. There just needs to be some planning about how to accommodate them.
Much like the move away from physical solar hot water to direct online PV used for water heating mostly etc. Times are changing as more tech is developed, and the price of this comes down.

WyleECoyoteNZ

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#1325213 15-Jun-2015 17:21

For what it's worth, my 2 cents worth

Driverless cars. Mercedes-Benz have been there and done that. A couple of years back a Mercedes-Benz S Class drove itself 125km. Story here. Yes, there was a human behind the wheel, but the car drove itself.
http://www.caradvice.com.au/250821/mercedes-benz-s-class-drives-125km/

For Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles....you'll need to move to California, USA. Again, Mercedes-Benz previewed this tech years ago with the B Class F Cell, but Honda have a mainstream FCEV in the USA, the Honda FCX Clarity
http://www.fuelcellpartnership.org/

As for having EV's emit a noise when there moving, I get what is said about the disabled people (as per some other comments), but I suspect the reason it might not work is that people buying a pure EV may do it for the silent motoring it gives so therefore having a pseudo noise come out of it defeats the purpose a bit. It's a bit like car manufacturers making petrol car cabins quieter then having the sound system have fake engine noise in the cabin...I'm looking at you BMW. If you don't believe me google it, the current BMW M5 is a case in point.

Something that I did read a while back is that EV need to be clearly identified as EV, especially for emergency services, you don't want emergency services staff being hurt\injured by a live car or leaking batteries after an accident.
http://www.nfpa.org/research/fire-protection-research-foundation/reports-and-proceedings/electrical-safety/new-technologies-and-electrical-safety/emergency-response-to-incident-involving-electric-vehicle-battery-hazards

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