RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

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#3127455 14-Sep-2023 00:00

andysh:

Secondly, I would like to see a 'green' tax on energy (petrol, electricity, diesel) based on CO2 / pollutant levels, so those that use the most in 'dirty' energy pay the most in tax to help move to cleaner energy. Understand this goes against my first point around a consumption tax, but would like to see this in as a behaviour tax.

You can't really do that when there is no alternative for many and they haven't been given time to move away to EVs. Not only that but it will be decades before they can produce enough EVs to replace NZ fleet. . This is also the whole issue around the poverty trap. The lowest income earners end up having to pay more to travel, than rich EV owners, who have already had free use of the roads, and also gotten a free $7000-8000 handout with the CC rebate. That is one of the justifications by national at getting rid of the CC rebate, despite the leaders family applying for the rebate themselves, which IMO is a bit hypocritical

mattwnz

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#3127456 14-Sep-2023 00:05

HarmLessSolutions:

PHEVs have hijacked the topic because they are the biggest and most obvious loophole for change to the RUC system to include EVs. The real issue is that vehicles are increasingly becoming more fuel efficient and as a result the tax take from a fuel excise based charge is reducing. In other words our hybrid (FET on petrol, distance for diesel) RUC system is becoming increasingly less fit for purpose (in funding the roading network). The most logical fix is to levy the charge on all road going vehicles on a distance and weight basis.

Yes this is the whole issue in a nutshell. Although Hybrids have been around for decades so those owners have been getting a bit of a free ride for a long time. Just like current EV owners who don't buy any petrol at all. But IMO there should be a bit of a reward to spend the money upgrading to new less polluting vehicles, otherwise there is less of an incentive to upgrade, and people will keep their older vehicles for longer, and buying cheaper petrol cars. But then you do run into the poverty trap issue.

frankv

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#3127528 14-Sep-2023 08:34

MikeB4: The best tax regime is one that has the lowest cost of collection. Add complications such as weight and distance charging just results in inefficiencies and less gain. Abolish all RUCs and increase general taxation or GST to fund road and infrastructure costs

Whilst ease of collection is important, I think it's secondary to fairness... taxation should (as near as practical) equal the cost to the state of a person performing the taxed activity. Large values of "practical" are OK, but if you tax the wrong thing, you incentivise the wrong thing, distort the economy, and end up with bad outcomes.

For example, from 1910 to 1947, the British taxed cars and motorcycles based on horsepower, initially aiming to protect British car manufacturing from the Model T Ford. For ease of calculation, "tax horsepower" was calculated based on the bore of the engine cylinders, but not their stroke. This resulted in British engines being designed with small bore (to minimise tax horsepower) and long stroke (to maximise actual horsepower). Lack of development funds meant that these designs remained in the British automotive industry until the 1960s, and in the 1970s the Japanese effectively wiped out the British motorcycle and then automobile industries with larger bore, shorter stroke, overhead valve (i.e. efficient) engines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_horsepower has more details. There is some irony in the industry being wiped out in part by measures taken to protect it.

johno1234

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#3127532 14-Sep-2023 08:37

Handle9:

If it's not actually producing more damage why does the increase in weight matter?

Sorry, just responding to the "You seem to still be pushing the EVs are heavier so more road damaging line. This is a totally facetious claim so interested in your providing some reputable basis for that claim." posting.

Engineers usually use the 4th power rule (W1/W2)^4 when estimating the damaged caused by vehicles based on axle weight. https://www.insidescience.org/news/how-much-damage-do-heavy-trucks-do-our-roads

An MG ZS ICE is 1255kg add the BEV LR model 1610Kg so 2.5 times the road damage.

If the RUC is to reflect what it should pay for then the formula would need to include weighted factors for all the costs the mileage incurs, including road maintenance (axle weight), ACC, emissions and so on. None if this is hard work for a computer and a programmer with year 13 algebra competence.

alasta

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#3127535 14-Sep-2023 08:56

everettpsycho:
Not only is work picking up the tab with a fuel card to pay it, they probably also haven't got a process for staff with an ev to charge at home and bill their power usage back to the company.

And then there's the people who can't charge at home. Some apartment parking facilities, including mine, simply don't have the necessary infrastructure.

Dingbatt

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#3127539 14-Sep-2023 09:09

johno1234:

Engineers usually use the 4th power rule (W1/W2)^4 when estimating the damaged caused by vehicles based on axle weight. https://www.insidescience.org/news/how-much-damage-do-heavy-trucks-do-our-roads

An MG ZS ICE is 1255kg add the BEV LR model 1610Kg so 2.5 times the road damage.

The article you linked focused only on road damage as a factor of weight. Your example of the difference between the ICE and EV MG ZS needs to take into consideration it is 2.5 times of virtually nothing. Or to quote the linked article

“The damage due to cars, for practical purposes, when we are designing pavements, is basically zero. It’s not actually zero, but it’s so much smaller -- orders of magnitude smaller -- that we don’t even bother with them,” said Karim Chatti, a civil engineer from Michigan State University in East Lansing.

The article also gives an example where a truck does 2500 times more damage than a car, but in NZ RUCs the worst category of truck has an RUC rate 6 times that of a car/ute. So reparation for damage done is only one element of the charge.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

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Dingbatt

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#3127541 14-Sep-2023 09:19

alasta:

And then there's the people who can't charge at home. Some apartment parking facilities, including mine, simply don't have the necessary infrastructure.

At the current rate for public charging (approx 80c/kWh) once you add RUCs (@ 7.6c/km) it would be more expensive* to run an EV than an efficient ICE (especially HEVs). This becomes a disincentive to the uptake of EVs for people without access to reasonably priced electricity for charging.

*Excluding servicing, etc.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

smac

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#3127543 14-Sep-2023 09:23

Dingbatt:

alasta:

And then there's the people who can't charge at home. Some apartment parking facilities, including mine, simply don't have the necessary infrastructure.

At the current rate for public charging (approx 80c/kWh) once you add RUCs (@ 7.6c/km) it would be more expensive* to run an EV than an efficient ICE (especially HEVs). This becomes a disincentive to the uptake of EVs for people without access to reasonably priced electricity for charging.

*Excluding servicing, etc.

These must have jumped a lot? I DC charge VERY rarely, and the last time was a couple years back, but then it was 40c?

HarmLessSolutions

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#3127544 14-Sep-2023 09:26

smac:

These must have jumped a lot? I DC charge VERY rarely, and the last time was a couple years back, but then it was 40c?

https://charge.net.nz/article/changes-to-the-chargenet-pricing-structure-from-30-november/

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

Dingbatt

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#3127546 14-Sep-2023 09:31

smac:

These must have jumped a lot? I DC charge VERY rarely, and the last time was a couple years back, but then it was 40c?

Yes. Chargenet raised their rates last year. Some BP and Z chargers are 60-65c/kWh, but the days of 40c/kWh are toast.

I assume the markup from the wholesale rate is for “infrastructure investment” and not (as rumoured) that the rate was set to be the same as running a Corolla.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

smac

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#3127547 14-Sep-2023 09:36

OK thanks. I see in news this morning Meridian are going to 50c.

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johno1234

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#3127551 14-Sep-2023 09:50

Dingbatt:

johno1234:

Engineers usually use the 4th power rule (W1/W2)^4 when estimating the damaged caused by vehicles based on axle weight. https://www.insidescience.org/news/how-much-damage-do-heavy-trucks-do-our-roads

An MG ZS ICE is 1255kg add the BEV LR model 1610Kg so 2.5 times the road damage.

The article you linked focused only on road damage as a factor of weight. Your example of the difference between the ICE and EV MG ZS needs to take into consideration it is 2.5 times of virtually nothing. Or to quote the linked article

“The damage due to cars, for practical purposes, when we are designing pavements, is basically zero. It’s not actually zero, but it’s so much smaller -- orders of magnitude smaller -- that we don’t even bother with them,” said Karim Chatti, a civil engineer from Michigan State University in East Lansing.

The article also gives an example where a truck does 2500 times more damage than a car, but in NZ RUCs the worst category of truck has an RUC rate 6 times that of a car/ute. So reparation for damage done is only one element of the charge.

Yes that is exactly right. But damage accumulates. Very few large trucks drive through my neighbourhood - just small home delivery vehicles very occasionally. Yet even neighbourhood roads require maintenance. Cars should contribute too. The RUC should be weighted so the costs reflect the expenses it covers. If replacing petrol excise it would be apportioned not just to road maintenance but also ACC, climate and so on.

johno1234

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#3127553 14-Sep-2023 09:56

Dingbatt:

smac:

These must have jumped a lot? I DC charge VERY rarely, and the last time was a couple years back, but then it was 40c?

Yes. Chargenet raised their rates last year. Some BP and Z chargers are 60-65c/kWh, but the days of 40c/kWh are toast.

I assume the markup from the wholesale rate is for “infrastructure investment” and not (as rumoured) that the rate was set to be the same as running a Corolla.

Commercial fast chargers are clearly uneconomic and for BEV users who got caught short (or on long trips). You have to home charge to make a BEV worth it.

MikeB4

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#3127601 14-Sep-2023 10:13

Energy cost rising significantly is going to be a fact of life, the "free"ride is over. My son and daughter-in-law have just left London after nearly a decade to return to the right side of the globe. One of the reason is the insane cost of energy along with a lot of other post brexit madness.

We just paid for our granddaughter to fly here for a holiday with cost an arm and leg.

As for charging, 90% + of our charging of the car is done overnight at home. Because of regen and letting the car manage power we seldom need to plug in at a public charger.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

alasta

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#3127624 14-Sep-2023 10:46

Dingbatt:

At the current rate for public charging (approx 80c/kWh) once you add RUCs (@ 7.6c/km) it would be more expensive* to run an EV than an efficient ICE (especially HEVs). This becomes a disincentive to the uptake of EVs for people without access to reasonably priced electricity for charging.

I have just been through this exercise. Electric isn't financially viable if you can't charge at home, and I couldn't find any hybrids that I liked and were readily available. I have always owned Mazdas so I took a CX-30 for a test drive and managed to get under 6.5l/100km under sedate driving according to the (admittedly not perfectly accurate) trip computer so I ended up ordering one of those.

I really only use the car for long trips, or when carrying cargo, otherwise I'm happy to just walk or take the bus to limit my carbon footprint. On that basis I have no objection to paying an additional carbon tax on my fuel purchases, but it would be nice if that revenue could be recycled back into public transport and walking infrastructure.

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