New Mitsubishi Jets

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Lias

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#185162 12-Nov-2015 08:59

Stuff story

Would love to see the ATR-72's replaced with small jet's like this, hate slow noisy prop flights.

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#1426730 12-Nov-2015 09:05

Lias: Stuff story

Would love to see the ATR-72's replaced with small jet's like this, hate slow noisy prop flights.

I'm sure Air NZ would be happy to buy jets if you would commit to paying more for airfares. None can offer CASK figures anywhere close to a turboprop such as the ATR.

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#1426731 12-Nov-2015 09:08

I like the ATRs can see lots more due to their high wing and lower altitude and they are more comfortable

sbiddle

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#1426733 12-Nov-2015 09:12

Just looking list prices one of those MRJ jets is double the price of an AR72 (US$47 million for the MRJ vs $25 million for an ATR72) and it's safe to say Air NZ would be getting a reasonable discount off list as they will have one of the biggest ATR72 fleets in the world so will become a very important customer. As Air NZ look to replace the Q300's in probably 5 years the ATR42 would be a logical choice for this as well due to the type rating being very similar so I'm sure ATR would love to be get this contract as well.

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#1426745 12-Nov-2015 09:32

It surprises me that the ATR42 effectively has a monopoly now that the Q300 has been discontinued. Turboprops have an economic advantage of regional jets in that they can generally break even with fewer bums on seats, and with the current state of the airline industry I would have thought there would be still be high demand for turboprops.

Lias

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#1426747 12-Nov-2015 09:37

I currently pay the same price for Wellington <-> Christchurch seat regardless of whether the flight is on A320's or ATR72's, I can't imagine it's going to change that much if it becomes A320's or MRJ's, but even if it did cost slightly more, I'd pay it for a faster, quieter flight.

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alasta

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#1426749 12-Nov-2015 09:39

Lias: I currently pay the same price for Wellington <-> Christchurch seat regardless of whether the flight is on A320's or ATR72's, I can't imagine it's going to change that much if it becomes A320's or MRJ's, but even if it did cost slightly more, I'd pay it for a faster, quieter flight.

Have you flown on one of the new ATR72-600? The noise level actually isn't too bad.

sbiddle

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#1426752 12-Nov-2015 09:49

Lias: I currently pay the same price for Wellington <-> Christchurch seat regardless of whether the flight is on A320's or ATR72's, I can't imagine it's going to change that much if it becomes A320's or MRJ's, but even if it did cost slightly more, I'd pay it for a faster, quieter flight.

That's because the CASK figures of a fully loaded A320 vs a fully loaded ATR72 are in the same sort of range.

There isn't the demand to fly greater than 68 seats on the WLG-CHC route on all flights which is why the ATR is used. If this was replaced with jets Air NZ would either be flying A320's that they couldn't even half fill orcutting the number of flights in 1/2 to fill jet services. Something like the MRJ which you're suggesting has considerably higher CASK figures than the ATR or a fully loaded A320, so makes no sense for the type of routes Air NZ fly.

Regional jets such as the Embraer and MRJ fill a niche where low pax numbers need to fly longer routes where turboprops are too slow and it's the reason they're popular in countries such as the US and Aussie. NZ doesn't have the population or routes to support them.

I don't like the ATR either, but I fly enough to understand the economics and reality of the airline world.

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sbiddle

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#1426753 12-Nov-2015 09:50

alasta:
Lias: I currently pay the same price for Wellington <-> Christchurch seat regardless of whether the flight is on A320's or ATR72's, I can't imagine it's going to change that much if it becomes A320's or MRJ's, but even if it did cost slightly more, I'd pay it for a faster, quieter flight.

Have you flown on one of the new ATR72-600? The noise level actually isn't too bad.

It's still pretty high, and gets pretty annoying on a 1hr50 flight to Dunedin.

Unfortunately noise cancelling headphones like my Bose ones aren't as effectively on turboprops as jets, but at least make it bearable.

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#1426756 12-Nov-2015 09:55

sbiddle:
alasta:
Lias: I currently pay the same price for Wellington <-> Christchurch seat regardless of whether the flight is on A320's or ATR72's, I can't imagine it's going to change that much if it becomes A320's or MRJ's, but even if it did cost slightly more, I'd pay it for a faster, quieter flight.

Have you flown on one of the new ATR72-600? The noise level actually isn't too bad.

It's still pretty high, and gets pretty annoying on a 1hr50 flight to Dunedin.

Unfortunately noise cancelling headphones like my Bose ones aren't as effectively on turboprops as jets, but at least make it bearable.

I find the Bose QC25's are pretty good. What model Bose do you have?

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#1426795 12-Nov-2015 11:20

Steve is right. A jet cannot compete with a turboprop over shorter distances. In New Zealand we should be running turboprops on most sectors.

On a side note I think aviation is heading towards a crisis in the turboprop market. Certification requirements have effectively killed the small turbo prop market (and to some extent the jet market). No manufacturer is prepared to take on building a new turboprop aircraft due to the huge costs involved.

We have already seen that in New Zealand with the demise of the B1900. We now have DC3's(!) replacing B1900's due to their grandfather rights.

Even the Caravan and PC12 are not the most efficient aircraft for the purpose. Both have PT6's which were designed in 1960. Any engine that turns the gas path through 180 degrees twice is not going to be the most efficient in 2015.

This does filter into the 50 seat turboprop market. If there is no competition for ATR they can increase their margins. Worldwide land transport is going (or is already) to claw back markets which had been lost to flying.

Cheers, Matt.

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Lias

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#1426860 12-Nov-2015 12:54

*sigh*

All I want is cheap, fast, quiet transport between cities :-)

hairy1

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#1426879 12-Nov-2015 13:21

Don't we all!

You could set up an airline.... @sbiddle has been mumbling about doing it. You could be an investor.

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#1426913 12-Nov-2015 13:55

I miss the BAE 146 whisper jets, had my first flight to AKL on one of those as a kid back when Ansett existed. That was when they served meals on national flights as well because I remember having the lamb.

Technofreak

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#1426919 12-Nov-2015 14:05

sbiddle: As Air NZ look to replace the Q300's in probably 5 years the ATR42 would be a logical choice for this as well due to the type rating being very similar so I'm sure ATR would love to be get this contract as well.

I doubt they'll buy the ATR 42?

Have you flown on one of the new ATR72-600? The noise level actually isn't too bad.

It's still pretty high, and gets pretty annoying on a 1hr50 flight to Dunedin.

It depends where you sit. The ATR can be quieter than the A320.

My ANR headset works pretty well on the ATR or A320

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Technofreak

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#1426921 12-Nov-2015 14:12

Lias: Stuff story

Would love to see the ATR-72's replaced with small jet's like this, hate slow noisy prop flights.

On most routes the turbo props operate on, the time saving over a jet is almost non existent, certainly not worth the extra cost.

As for being noisy the ATR particularly is generally as quite as a jet.

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