Council ticket legality?

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msukiwi

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Topic # 213920 19-Apr-2017 08:19

No I haven't got one!

I was wondering if any one knows the legality of people receiving tickets for breaching the parking signs etc in a street

that the Council reply to a LGOIMA request state:"Staff are not aware of any information the Council holds in relation to part 2 of your request."

That question was: "2 - Road Marking and Signage (Including Parking Restrictions) for XXXXXX Street, XXXXXXXXXX, from XXXXXXXX Road to XXXXXXX Lane.”

I'm perplexed how anything could be enforced. What if a resident placed a sign or yellow line? (They haven't) How would they know the difference?

But what about the signs etc that the Council have - are they enforceable?

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Banana?
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Reply # 1767091 19-Apr-2017 09:10

The council (and the Police) have the legal right to fine you, and enforce/collect the fines.

They (in the case of Auckland, it will be Auckland Transport) will have records of where parking is/isn't allowed, and where signs and road markings should be. Council Parking officers enforce these areas, and can issue fines. If you feel a sign is in the wrong place, take it up with the council - they should know what should be where.

No other entity can issue fines. They can issue infringement notices, but only on private land (parking lots etc.). Infringement notices are not fines, and must be for liquidated damages. You can dispute them if you feel they are too harsh.

PaulBags

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Reply # 1767119 19-Apr-2017 09:43

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trig42: ...
They ... will have records of where parking is/isn't allowed, and where signs and road markings should be.
...

That's the issue though - according to OP council have stated that in fact they do not have this information.

Bung

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Reply # 1767166 19-Apr-2017 10:15

Maybe it depends on which Council staff were asked. Anyone at Parks & Reserves probably could say they know nothing about street signs.

I've watched Parking signs going up in Wellington and the contractors were very particular taking photos of the exact location of each sign. Councils have been taken to Court (usually when a lawyer gets a ticket) testing the legality of parking signage so they are usually very careful.

If the OP is on a campaign maybe he should have asked a specific question rather than a "What can you tell me?" one.

msukiwi

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Reply # 1767170 19-Apr-2017 10:17

The reply from the Council was an "Official" one under the Official Information Act stating they "have no records"!

trig42

Banana?
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Reply # 1767176 19-Apr-2017 10:22

Which Council?

If Auckland, have you tried Auckland Transport? They are a separate organisation (owned and reporting to Auckland Council though). Quite the bureaucracy too.

msukiwi

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Reply # 1767180 19-Apr-2017 10:25

Christchurch City

trig42:

Which Council?

If Auckland, have you tried Auckland Transport? They are a separate organisation (owned and reporting to Auckland Council though). Quite the bureaucracy too.

cadman

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Reply # 1767181 19-Apr-2017 10:25

trig42:

The council (and the Police) have the legal right to fine you, and enforce/collect the fines.

They (in the case of Auckland, it will be Auckland Transport) will have records of where parking is/isn't allowed, and where signs and road markings should be. Council Parking officers enforce these areas, and can issue fines. If you feel a sign is in the wrong place, take it up with the council - they should know what should be where.

No other entity can issue fines. They can issue infringement notices, but only on private land (parking lots etc.). Infringement notices are not fines, and must be for liquidated damages. You can dispute them if you feel they are too harsh.

Just to be a nit-picker - the Police and Road Controlling Authorities, such as Councils, CANNOT "fine" you. They CAN issue an infringement offence notice which if you decide is incorrect, you can contest, or you can pay the FEE. A Court, and only a Court, can fine you.

Private entities like Wilson Parking seek to piggyback on the infringement offence notices by calling their invoices infringement notices to play on people's ignorance of their lack of authority.

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Bung

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Reply # 1767189 19-Apr-2017 10:37

msukiwi:

The reply from the Council was an "Official" one under the Official Information Act stating they "have no records"!

Here's an exerpt from the Christchurch Council's by-law

"5. PARKING, STOPPING AND STANDING RESTRICTIONS (1) The Council may by resolution set aside any road, or part of any road, or any other area controlled by the Council, as a restricted parking area. (2) A restricted parking area may be subject to such conditions as the Council determines by resolution and, without limitation, may include:"

So at a minimum there'd be minutes of a Council meeting where that resolution was made. IANAL but presume that signage would have to comply with various parts of the Transport Act.

If your question to the Council was more or less what parking restrictions do you have in Street X and they said they don't know I think that is obviously wrong.

cadman

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Reply # 1767190 19-Apr-2017 10:37

msukiwi:

that the Council reply to a LGOIMA request state:"Staff are not aware of any information the Council holds in relation to part 2 of your request."

Reply to to them to confirm and rephrase the question to something around the records of Council regarding erected signage under the Traffic Control Devices Manual as it relates to parking on xxxx street between xxxx road and xxxx place. They MUST have records - they don't just send road markers out with some paint with verbal instructions - they're issued with plans - I know - I've personally produced them for contractors (the remarking of many major Auckland roundabouts in 2007/2008).

Journeyman

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Reply # 1767425 19-Apr-2017 16:11

If the council doesn't give you the information you require, consider going to the Office of the Ombudsman.

msukiwi

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Reply # 1767428 19-Apr-2017 16:20

I've written back to them asking to prove the validity of any infringement notice issued given the information they have provided.

mattwnz

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Reply # 1767494 19-Apr-2017 17:44

Journeyman:

If the council doesn't give you the information you require, consider going to the Office of the Ombudsman.

Isn't any information you request from a council via a request, have to be considered an official information request? Or do you specifically have to say it is a official information request?

msukiwi

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Reply # 1767501 19-Apr-2017 17:53

mattwnz:

Journeyman:

If the council doesn't give you the information you require, consider going to the Office of the Ombudsman.

Isn't any information you request from a council via a request, have to be considered an official information request? Or do you specifically have to say it is a official information request?

If you mark it as a LGOIMA request they have to process it within 20 working days or provide details of any extension.

You also get a reference number to follow up.

sonyxperiageek

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Reply # 1767516 19-Apr-2017 18:37

Wasn't there a piece in the news lately about no parking left at Park and Ride stations in Auckland, so they just park on the grass? I think one even parked in the middle of the roundabout lol! But the spokesperson said something along the lines of "If it's not blocking anything, then it's okay?" Does that mean that it was okay to park on the grass berm or in the middle of a roundabout?

Matthew

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msukiwi

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Reply # 1774751 3-May-2017 09:01

Still waiting for a reply re the legality of Infringement Notices issued.

I emailed a reply to the LGOIMA request on the 19th April.

Hadn't heard anything or received an acknowledgement by the 26th so I phoned.

Received an email on the 27th saying:

"I have forwarded your email below on to staff, and will let you know when I hear back from them with a response – or they may possibly contact you directly."

As of now I have received no further contact by any means.

They seem r e a l l y s l o w !

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