Another CGA question - car related.

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Paul1977

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#223421 28-Sep-2017 19:16

I had an air fuel sensor (O2 sensor) replaced on my car just over 2 years ago, the part and install cost a little over $300. This was done at a proper Toyota dealership.

Today the check engine light came on and when they hooked it up to the computer found the same sensor has failed.

Technically I am about 5 weeks outside of the 2 year parts warranty, however I have only done 17,000 km since it was replaced and I believe it should last a lot longer than that.

Am I correct in thinking I should be covered under the CGA for this?

The manager wasn't in when I called in and had it checked this afternoon, so I plan on calling him tomorrow.

Hopefully they will just come to the party, but if not I wanted some opinions on whether I am being reasonable in expecting this part to last considerably longer than 17,000 km and thinking they should replace at no cost?

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Mad Scientist
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#1874362 28-Sep-2017 21:50

i would hope 5 weeks outside warranty is still warrantable!

now got a question - what other symptoms other than check engine light when the oxygen sensor fails? does the engine still run normal?

mattwnz

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#1874381 28-Sep-2017 22:52

I think it comes down to what is actually causing it. If it is the actual part itself, should a part like that expected to reasonably last only two years?

cadman

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#1874441 29-Sep-2017 01:29

Just because an error code is indicating a certain item doesn't mean that item has actually failed. It is simply a starting point for diagnosis.

scuwp

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#1874483 29-Sep-2017 08:08

"If" it is the same part (and we don't appear to know for sure)...I am on the fence over if you have a leg to stand on. A $300 part (that is a common fault on a lot of vehicles) lasting 17,000 km...I am inclined to think any argument will not be from a strong position, and if they took it the whole way would ultimately fail, or be more trouble than it's worth. Give it a shot, but perhaps have a back-up proposal to negotiate with, for example you pay for the part, they provide the labour for free.

Lazy is such an ugly word, I prefer to call it selective participation

MikeB4

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#1874511 29-Sep-2017 09:03

If it is the O2 sensor and it is a common fault, failing after just two years and not too many KMs you could argue that the product is not durable and possibly is not free of minor faults. Some part have finite life spans and sensors may well have that restriction but this should be clearly communicated. eg in our Spa pool we a UV lamp that requires replacement after 12 months however that is clearly stated in the Spa pool documentation.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Bung

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#1874512 29-Sep-2017 09:04

cadman:
Just because an error code is indicating a certain item doesn't mean that item has actually failed. It is simply a starting point for diagnosis.

This and

From a trademe ad
"This is a genuine Toyota Hiace Regius Regiusace van extremely high-quality Denso air/fuel oxygen sensor and is for pre cat or upstream fitment, (the sensor before the catalytic converter) please check photos for the location of this part.

Good quality oxygen sensors will perform correctly for at least 100,000 km plus. CHEAP oxygen sensors have been known to only last 15,000 km."

So that leads to the question "What brand of sensor got installed, was it a Toyota part or generic?"

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lxsw20

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#1874519 29-Sep-2017 09:20

If it was done at a Toyota dealership then it will be a genuine part (Likely Denso). Are you running the recommended fuel for the car? As in not running 91 in something that should be running 95/98?

Paul1977

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#1874534 29-Sep-2017 09:51

lxsw20:

If it was done at a Toyota dealership then it will be a genuine part (Likely Denso). Are you running the recommended fuel for the car? As in not running 91 in something that should be running 95/98?

Yes, was done and Toyota dealership and was a genuine part.

Have only ever used BP Ultimate 98.

Paul1977

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#1874563 29-Sep-2017 10:05

mattwnz:

I think it comes down to what is actually causing it. If it is the actual part itself, should a part like that expected to reasonably last only two years?

I specifically asked when it was last replaced causes these to fail because the other side had failed a year earlier and they indicated just a combination of age (kms) and bad luck. If something is causing it to fail prematurely, I feel like it was Toyota's job to identify that when the last one failed (the car only had 66,000km on it at the time) so still not a fantastically long life (even assuming it was the original one). I aslo get it serviced every year with Toyota.

If it only lasted 2 years in a car like a Taxi doing 50,000km a year then that is reasonable. But in my mind 17,000km on a genuine Toyota part is not reasonable.

clevedon

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#1874565 29-Sep-2017 10:09

Bung:
cadman:

Just because an error code is indicating a certain item doesn't mean that item has actually failed. It is simply a starting point for diagnosis.

This and

From a trademe ad
"This is a genuine Toyota Hiace Regius Regiusace van extremely high-quality Denso air/fuel oxygen sensor and is for pre cat or upstream fitment, (the sensor before the catalytic converter) please check photos for the location of this part.

Good quality oxygen sensors will perform correctly for at least 100,000 km plus. CHEAP oxygen sensors have been known to only last 15,000 km."

So that leads to the question "What brand of sensor got installed, was it a Toyota part or generic?"

A lot of vehicles have O2 sensors before and after the catalytic converters, if it is the one after the cat it could be the cat causing the sensor to fail or give a fault code - so the sensor may or may not be the initial cause/fault.

Paul1977

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#1874570 29-Sep-2017 10:19

clevedon:

A lot of vehicles have O2 sensors before and after the catalytic converters, if it is the one after the cat it could be the cat causing the sensor to fail or give a fault code - so the sensor may or may not be the initial cause/fault.

It is before the catalytic converter.

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cadman

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#1874585 29-Sep-2017 10:47

The question really needs to be asked "How did they determine the lambda sensor was actually faulty?" If they simply replaced it because the code came up and hoped for the best, they need to be hauled over the coals.

Sadly, in the early days of electronic engine management this is exactly what many mechanics used to do, at great expense to customers. I hope it has moved on from there. We had a 2.0L Camira in the workshop one time that had an intermittent CHECK ENGINE light coming on. I forget what the code was relating to but it was eventually traced to a dry joint on the ECU itself but not before the idiot workshop owner had not replaced the 'faulty' component with a brand new one not once, not twice, but three times! The very definition of stupidity. I was an apprentice at the time and even then I knew better but he wouldn't listen. Mind you this is the same clown who didn't know how the ballast resistor worked on an ignition coil and proved it by continuously trying to start a car fitted with a faulty one only to have it stop as soon as the key was returned from the START to the RUN position and insisted it must just be out of petrol.

Paul1977

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#1874588 29-Sep-2017 10:53

Toyota head office said they won't cover the whole lot, but will contribute $180 towards the cost (which totals $373). The local dealer said the have already cut a little off the labour component, but I couldn't talk them down any further.

Not an awful outcome, but not as good as I hoped.

I'm going to email the CEO of the local Toyota branch and see if they he'd consider sharpening his pencil on the labour a little more. If he does then great, if not then I can live with it.

Interestingly the check engine light has gone out again on it's own, although from experience this has happened with the last 2 that have failed, light goes on and off for a while before staying on constantly.

Paul1977

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#1874590 29-Sep-2017 10:57

cadman:

The question really needs to be asked "How did they determine the lambda sensor was actually faulty?" If they simply replaced it because the code came up and hoped for the best, they need to be hauled over the coals.

This is a good point. In this instance they have only plugged in the computer, but am am waiting for the service manager to get back to me as I do want to clarify that they will be actually testing the O2 sensor itself before just replacing it.

@cadman other than the sensor itself failing, what else could cause this error code that they should be checking?

cadman

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#1874601 29-Sep-2017 11:09

As above, it could be simply a bad connection somewhere like a wire shorting to ground or a cracked joint on a circuit board. I would clear the error code and see if it comes back almost immediately and go from there. Permanent faults are much easier to trace.

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