VW dieselgate continues, tries to prove diesel fumes are OK

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › VW dieselgate continues, tries to prove diesel fumes are OK

kingdragonfly

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#228935 31-Jan-2018 07:09

http://autotalk.co.nz/news/humans-monkeys-gassed-auto-research

"Posted by Scott Murray on Autotalk on January 30th, 2018

Ten monkeys and 25 human volunteers were used in separate vehicle emission testing exercises.

The New York Times broke over the weekend the story of an Albuquerque, New Mexico lab using Java monkeys for diesel emission testing in 2014, before the company’s “Dieselgate” scandal broke.

The ten monkeys were put in airtight chambers watching cartoons while inhaling diesel fumes from a Volkswagen Beetle in an experiment designed to falsify proof that the carmaker’s vehicle emissions were measurably less than in older vehicles.

The monkeys were subjected to four-hour sessions of inhaling the fumes. In a second test, the monkeys were forced to inhale fumes from an old Ford F250 for comparison.

The NY Times reveals all three German manufacturers, and Bosch, financed the European Research Group on Environment and Health in the Transport Sector (EUGT in German abbreviation) which had the experiment conducted. EUGT is now defunct after the Dieselgate controversy.

The sponsored research was designed to challenge the World Health Organization (WHO) which classified diesel exhaust as carcinogenic (potentially causing cancer) in 2012.

In 2013, EUGT also exposed human volunteers to similar nitrogen dioxide (NO2) gas-inhaling experiments at the University Clinic Aachen in Germany, with three-hour sessions of varying mixes of toxic fumes before being physically examined.

..."

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#1948945 31-Jan-2018 07:21

Doesn't matter now. Diesel is close to dead as far as new vehicles are concerned. Dieselgate and excessively restrictive emission controls have killed it.

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#1948950 31-Jan-2018 07:28

The first episode of the Netflix documentary, Dirty Money, which chronicles the Volkswagon emmisions saga really is an eye opener.

They start the episode by saying it’s considered a cheap trick to mention Hitler (the Nazis promoted and funded the formation of the company) but then point out later this corporation was actually considering (through a research company) gasing humans in a box with diesel fumes to prove their cheating vehicles were safe to human health.

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#1948957 31-Jan-2018 07:42

Here's a scathing, yet entertaining, look at VWs Monkey Gate: link here

kingdragonfly

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#1948961 31-Jan-2018 07:55

I wasn't aware of the Netflix series. Thanks

https://www.netflix.com/nz/title/80118100

Here's the first episode contents.

[b]1. Hard NOx

Volkswagen's "clean diesel" cars seemed like a dream come true for carbon-conscious drivers -- until a fraud of staggering proportions came to light.[/b]

2. Payday

Behind the lavish lifestyle of race car driver Scott Tucker lay a secretive lending empire built on tribal perks and profits from poor customers.

3. Drug Short

When drugmaker Valeant began to grow at dizzying speeds, investors were thrilled. But a handful of skeptics realized something was very wrong.

4. Cartel Bank

A trail of suspicious transactions led to startling revelations about banking giant HSBC and its ties to Mexico's deadliest drug cartels.

The Maple Syrup Heist

An unusual heist that made headlines around the world highlights a bitter feud over one of Canada's most precious resources: maple syrup.

6. The Confidence Man

Donald Trump's image as a savvy businessman dazzled millions. But journalists and former associates describe an empire awash in drama and shady deals.

MikeAqua

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#1949091 31-Jan-2018 10:31

kryptonjohn:

Doesn't matter now. Diesel is close to dead as far as new vehicles are concerned. Dieselgate and excessively restrictive emission controls have killed it.

Diesels are still popular in the Ute and SUV categories which are the two biggest categories in NZ. I'm not sure how that compares to other countries.

And then there are trucks and heavy machinery

Mike

kryptonjohn

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#1949114 31-Jan-2018 10:49

MikeAqua:

kryptonjohn:

Doesn't matter now. Diesel is close to dead as far as new vehicles are concerned. Dieselgate and excessively restrictive emission controls have killed it.

Diesels are still popular in the Ute and SUV categories which are the two biggest categories in NZ. I'm not sure how that compares to other countries.

And then there are trucks and heavy machinery

Both true comments. However NZ demand won't affect the global manufacturing trends and heavy vehicles will need diesel for a fair while yet. I'm mainly referring to regular cars which had been more popular in Europe/UK but not so much here.

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#1949775 31-Jan-2018 23:28

What everyone forgets when looking at NOx emissions, is what else happens when you lower them. The biggest problem - carbon emissions increase. Just look at the reports of people complaining of poor fuel economy after having the cheat software removed.

Also using NOx reduction systems, without also using a particulate filter, also causes a massive increase in particulate emissions. It also causes inlet manifolds to fill up with carbon, and often makes the exhaust visibly more "smoky". It also causes particulate filters to fail, due to the exhaust often not getting hot enough to self regenerate the filter. (burn off the particles). Often you have to take new diesel vehicles on high speed motorway runs (at least 20 min of driving at 100K), just so the ECU can inject diesel down the exhaust, as a means of heating the particulate filter. (Extra fuel and carbon emissions!!!). Disabling EGR helps the particulate filter to "self regenerate" meaning less need to go for a "burnoff" drive.

Personally I disabled the EGR on a 2007 Mitsubishi L300 (work van while I was still an employee) EGR enabled - approx 320Km per tank of diesel. EDR disabled - Approx 450Km per tank of diesel. The van smoked less, and cruised with less accelerator input. Big fuel saving, big carbon emissions reduction, big soot emissions reduction. Sure, NOx emissions would have been higher. But I think that is a good tradeoff.

There are lots of cases of people cheating their emissions via disabling EGR, Just to save on fuel and maintenance costs. (look on UK diesel vehicle forums, expensive diesel there means more incentive to cheat).

Also NOx emissions are quickly flushed out of the atmosphere by rain. And when the resultant nitrogen compounds are mixed in water, They act as nitrogen fertilizer to plants. meaning the plants will grow quicker and remove more CO2. And the NOx compounds help to break up atmospheric methane. Which means that emissions from international shipping actually have an overall negative effect on global warming.

http://www.oecd.org/greengrowth/greening-transport/45095528.pdf

As you can see, I think that NOx reductions are a waste of time. Sure, reduce them if it can be done so without any tradeoffs. But it is crazy, As we know that carbon emissions are definitely bad. Particulate emissions are definitely bad. Unburnt hydrocarbon emissions are definitely bad. While NOx emissions are only bad, if they build up to high concentrations in a small area. And they have some side benefits. (No side benefits from higher CO2, HC, and particulate emissions).

Note that there are also political considerations as well. As the NOx emissions cheating means that lots of governments have lost money due to less fuel tax collected, due to lower diesel usage. And oil companies also lost money, again due to lower diesel sales. Imagine a 5-10% fuel saving, multiplied by the number of cheating VWs. That uncollected fuel tax and lost sales quickly adds up to some big $$$. Also compare the fines given to VW and GM by the USA. (GM ignition lock scandal that directly killed people due to airbag systems getting disabled). Yet VW at most, only indirectly killed people through more pollution. Which unlike the ignition problems, cant be traced to individual persons.

Then there is the moral considerations. Is it right for rich northern hemisphere countries to pass laws only to reduce pollution that directly affects them (NOx). While the extra carbon emissions mostly affect the 3rd world countries.

And only 10% of worldwide NOx emissions come from fossil fuel burning anyway.

https://whatsyourimpact.org/greenhouse-gases/nitrous-oxide-emissions

As for the monkey tests - They are completely stupid. VW should be given a far bigger punishment for doing them.

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#1949823 1-Feb-2018 08:44

Aredwood:
What everyone forgets when looking at NOx emissions, is what else happens when you lower them. The biggest problem - carbon emissions increase. Just look at the reports of people complaining of poor fuel economy after having the cheat software removed.

Also using NOx reduction systems, without also using a particulate filter, also causes a massive increase in particulate emissions. It also causes inlet manifolds to fill up with carbon, and often makes the exhaust visibly more "smoky". It also causes particulate filters to fail, due to the exhaust often not getting hot enough to self regenerate the filter. (burn off the particles). Often you have to take new diesel vehicles on high speed motorway runs (at least 20 min of driving at 100K), just so the ECU can inject diesel down the exhaust, as a means of heating the particulate filter. (Extra fuel and carbon emissions!!!). Disabling EGR helps the particulate filter to "self regenerate" meaning less need to go for a "burnoff" drive.

Personally I disabled the EGR on a 2007 Mitsubishi L300 (work van while I was still an employee) EGR enabled - approx 320Km per tank of diesel. EDR disabled - Approx 450Km per tank of diesel. The van smoked less, and cruised with less accelerator input. Big fuel saving, big carbon emissions reduction, big soot emissions reduction. Sure, NOx emissions would have been higher. But I think that is a good tradeoff.

There are lots of cases of people cheating their emissions via disabling EGR, Just to save on fuel and maintenance costs. (look on UK diesel vehicle forums, expensive diesel there means more incentive to cheat).

Also NOx emissions are quickly flushed out of the atmosphere by rain. And when the resultant nitrogen compounds are mixed in water, They act as nitrogen fertilizer to plants. meaning the plants will grow quicker and remove more CO2. And the NOx compounds help to break up atmospheric methane. Which means that emissions from international shipping actually have an overall negative effect on global warming.

http://www.oecd.org/greengrowth/greening-transport/45095528.pdf

As you can see, I think that NOx reductions are a waste of time. Sure, reduce them if it can be done so without any tradeoffs. But it is crazy, As we know that carbon emissions are definitely bad. Particulate emissions are definitely bad. Unburnt hydrocarbon emissions are definitely bad. While NOx emissions are only bad, if they build up to high concentrations in a small area. And they have some side benefits. (No side benefits from higher CO2, HC, and particulate emissions).

Note that there are also political considerations as well. As the NOx emissions cheating means that lots of governments have lost money due to less fuel tax collected, due to lower diesel usage. And oil companies also lost money, again due to lower diesel sales. Imagine a 5-10% fuel saving, multiplied by the number of cheating VWs. That uncollected fuel tax and lost sales quickly adds up to some big $$$. Also compare the fines given to VW and GM by the USA. (GM ignition lock scandal that directly killed people due to airbag systems getting disabled). Yet VW at most, only indirectly killed people through more pollution. Which unlike the ignition problems, cant be traced to individual persons.

Then there is the moral considerations. Is it right for rich northern hemisphere countries to pass laws only to reduce pollution that directly affects them (NOx). While the extra carbon emissions mostly affect the 3rd world countries.

And only 10% of worldwide NOx emissions come from fossil fuel burning anyway.

https://whatsyourimpact.org/greenhouse-gases/nitrous-oxide-emissions

As for the monkey tests - They are completely stupid. VW should be given a far bigger punishment for doing them.

The problem is NOX is a major factor in fine particle pollution deaths. The figure quoted seems to be about 5000 premature deaths in Europe per year, about half of all fine particle related deaths. And vehicles were the major contributor. Add to that the masive cost on healthcare of treating all the related disorders.

The effect on the environment isn’t quite as benign as you suggest, also.

The dieselgate vehicles only reduced NOX when they were being tested, otherwise they operated in more fuel efficient, less exhaust damaging modes. European laws were strict but the fine print allowed companies to certify vehicles that had high NOx emissions so diesels in Europe emitt high levels of NOx despite the regulations.

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#1949903 1-Feb-2018 10:13

AFAIK, NOx and particulates should be treated as slightly separates issues.

I can't find NZ figures for measured NO2 levels in Chch - they will be there somewhere and I probably didn't look hard enough. I did find reports showing that monitoring of NO2 in Chch, levels never exceeded the limits over 1 hour period, which I assume are the same limits as used in Europe of 200ug/M2 (IIRC). In larger European cities, London in particular, those limits are regularly exceeded, and that is dangerous to health - especially for people with asthma etc.

Petrol ICE, stratified charge direct-injected engines also produce particulates - and in some cases at high levels. Last time I looked at it, then upcoming Euro emission standards would require fitment of particulate filters to direct injected petrol cars (from about 2019 on? I don't remember). I think there's also a lot of unknowns, the very fine nano-particulates aren't visible, weren't easy to measure, and pass through your lungs directly to the bloodstream. The inflammatory response from presence of these is linked to heart disease and cancers etc - so not necessarily the same mainly "lung diseases" as might be expected from inhaling soot from old diesels.

Anyway, I don't think NOx seems to be such a serious issue in NZ (compared to say London or Los Angeles). If it was a big issue, then I'd have expected monitored levels in Chch (where temperature inversion trapped smog has been an ongoing issue) would be high - but they don't seem to be. But particulates are.

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#1949952 1-Feb-2018 10:59

Fred99:
AFAIK, NOx and particulates should be treated as slightly separates issues.

I can't find NZ figures for measured NO2 levels in Chch - they will be there somewhere and I probably didn't look hard enough. I did find reports showing that monitoring of NO2 in Chch, levels never exceeded the limits over 1 hour period, which I assume are the same limits as used in Europe of 200ug/M2 (IIRC). In larger European cities, London in particular, those limits are regularly exceeded, and that is dangerous to health - especially for people with asthma etc.

Petrol ICE, stratified charge direct-injected engines also produce particulates - and in some cases at high levels. Last time I looked at it, then upcoming Euro emission standards would require fitment of particulate filters to direct injected petrol cars (from about 2019 on? I don't remember). I think there's also a lot of unknowns, the very fine nano-particulates aren't visible, weren't easy to measure, and pass through your lungs directly to the bloodstream. The inflammatory response from presence of these is linked to heart disease and cancers etc - so not necessarily the same mainly "lung diseases" as might be expected from inhaling soot from old diesels.

Anyway, I don't think NOx seems to be such a serious issue in NZ (compared to say London or Los Angeles). If it was a big issue, then I'd have expected monitored levels in Chch (where temperature inversion trapped smog has been an ongoing issue) would be high - but they don't seem to be. But particulates are.

I think the NOx gases are involved in the formation of fine particulates so the two aren’t necessarily disconnected.

Fred99

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#1949979 1-Feb-2018 11:19

Lastman:
Fred99:

AFAIK, NOx and particulates should be treated as slightly separates issues.

I can't find NZ figures for measured NO2 levels in Chch - they will be there somewhere and I probably didn't look hard enough. I did find reports showing that monitoring of NO2 in Chch, levels never exceeded the limits over 1 hour period, which I assume are the same limits as used in Europe of 200ug/M2 (IIRC). In larger European cities, London in particular, those limits are regularly exceeded, and that is dangerous to health - especially for people with asthma etc.

Petrol ICE, stratified charge direct-injected engines also produce particulates - and in some cases at high levels. Last time I looked at it, then upcoming Euro emission standards would require fitment of particulate filters to direct injected petrol cars (from about 2019 on? I don't remember). I think there's also a lot of unknowns, the very fine nano-particulates aren't visible, weren't easy to measure, and pass through your lungs directly to the bloodstream. The inflammatory response from presence of these is linked to heart disease and cancers etc - so not necessarily the same mainly "lung diseases" as might be expected from inhaling soot from old diesels.

Anyway, I don't think NOx seems to be such a serious issue in NZ (compared to say London or Los Angeles). If it was a big issue, then I'd have expected monitored levels in Chch (where temperature inversion trapped smog has been an ongoing issue) would be high - but they don't seem to be. But particulates are.

I think the NOx gases are involved in the formation of fine particulates so the two aren’t necessarily disconnected.

I don't think so - it's almost an inverse correlation. AFAIK NOx forms when there's high combustion temperatures at <stoichiometric fuel:air mixture (lean burn state) particulates forming at a higher rate when the mixture is rich. NOx is typically being produced at moderate cruise speed, particulates when you hit the loud pedal. When the O2 in the fuel:air charge is used in combustion, it's not there to form NOx.

If you want masses of black smoke in a diesel, adjust the pump (manually if old-school mechanical injection - by "chipping" or adjusting the ECU if it's a modern common rail) and you'll get both a little amount more power (limited by how much air the engine can blow in) - and a hell of a lot more black stuff coming out the exhaust. Possibly less NOx though. Most old-school mechanical injector pumps had a hole in the adjuster screw so that this could be wired and sealed after being set correctly, and it was illegal to DIY tamper with injection settings. Not in NZ. You can "chip" and modify diesels more or less at will, disable EGR systems etc etc. Technically illegal - but nobody ever seems to check. Done "right" from a performance POV (but with no care for environmental impact), if you want to increase power in a modern common-rail turbo diesel, then larger turbocharger and/or larger more efficient intercooler, combined with appropriate ECU adjustments to injection etc, then massive increases in power are possible - and a hell of a lot of people are doing this.

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#1949988 1-Feb-2018 11:34

I would dearly love to delete the EGR on my VW but it means getting an P0401 insufficient flow error and nobody seems to be able to defeat that.

Lastman

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#1950002 1-Feb-2018 11:52

Fred99:
Lastman:
Fred99:

AFAIK, NOx and particulates should be treated as slightly separates issues.

I can't find NZ figures for measured NO2 levels in Chch - they will be there somewhere and I probably didn't look hard enough. I did find reports showing that monitoring of NO2 in Chch, levels never exceeded the limits over 1 hour period, which I assume are the same limits as used in Europe of 200ug/M2 (IIRC). In larger European cities, London in particular, those limits are regularly exceeded, and that is dangerous to health - especially for people with asthma etc.

Petrol ICE, stratified charge direct-injected engines also produce particulates - and in some cases at high levels. Last time I looked at it, then upcoming Euro emission standards would require fitment of particulate filters to direct injected petrol cars (from about 2019 on? I don't remember). I think there's also a lot of unknowns, the very fine nano-particulates aren't visible, weren't easy to measure, and pass through your lungs directly to the bloodstream. The inflammatory response from presence of these is linked to heart disease and cancers etc - so not necessarily the same mainly "lung diseases" as might be expected from inhaling soot from old diesels.

Anyway, I don't think NOx seems to be such a serious issue in NZ (compared to say London or Los Angeles). If it was a big issue, then I'd have expected monitored levels in Chch (where temperature inversion trapped smog has been an ongoing issue) would be high - but they don't seem to be. But particulates are.

I think the NOx gases are involved in the formation of fine particulates so the two aren’t necessarily disconnected.

I don't think so - it's almost an inverse correlation. AFAIK NOx forms when there's high combustion temperatures at <stoichiometric fuel:air mixture (lean burn state) particulates forming at a higher rate when the mixture is rich. NOx is typically being produced at moderate cruise speed, particulates when you hit the loud pedal. When the O2 in the fuel:air charge is used in combustion, it's not there to form NOx.

If you want masses of black smoke in a diesel, adjust the pump (manually if old-school mechanical injection - by "chipping" or adjusting the ECU if it's a modern common rail) and you'll get both a little amount more power (limited by how much air the engine can blow in) - and a hell of a lot more black stuff coming out the exhaust. Possibly less NOx though. Most old-school mechanical injector pumps had a hole in the adjuster screw so that this could be wired and sealed after being set correctly, and it was illegal to DIY tamper with injection settings. Not in NZ. You can "chip" and modify diesels more or less at will, disable EGR systems etc etc. Technically illegal - but nobody ever seems to check. Done "right" from a performance POV (but with no care for environmental impact), if you want to increase power in a modern common-rail turbo diesel, then larger turbocharger and/or larger more efficient intercooler, combined with appropriate ECU adjustments to injection etc, then massive increases in power are possible - and a hell of a lot of people are doing this.

I think it’s what happens in the atmosphere.

“NOx gases react to form smog and acid rain as well as being central to the formation of fine particles (PM) and ground level ozone, both of which are associated with adverse health effects..”

Fred99

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#1950006 1-Feb-2018 11:56

Yes - often visible as "photochemical smog".

Fred99

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#1950011 1-Feb-2018 12:07

kryptonjohn:

I would dearly love to delete the EGR on my VW but it means getting an P0401 insufficient flow error and nobody seems to be able to defeat that.

Not sure if this applies - but it seems that time is needed after new cars are released - for hackers to eventually decipher/reverse engineer the ECUs - or someone working in the industry to leak information perhaps.

EGR should NOT impact significantly on fuel efficiency - if it's working correctly. It's only open/recirculating at low throttle setting, the EGR valve should close when accelerating. The bigger issue (IMO) is the accumulation of greasy mess in the intake, possible clogging of sensors etc - and especially when many makers don't exactly make it easy to remove and/or clean out the intake system.

Some VW group petrol engines (and cars from other makers) with "FSI" are also prone to carboning up the intake ports - the cause isn't related to EGR - but that gets the blame. If it's a V6, then labour cost to clean the intake ports can be a bit scary.

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