2 wheel scooters. Lots of illegal ones on sale on Trademe

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › 2 wheel scooters. Lots of illegal ones on sale on Trademe

kingdragonfly

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#280413 13-Dec-2020 14:39

If you want to see a lot of illegal 2 wheel folding scooters on sale on TradeMe, search for the following

"scooter folding electric"

The limit for these is supposed to be 300 watts, unless you are using it on private property (a farm or offroad)

One of these was 2000 watts, like the one shown for sale in NZ.

You'll see language like "excellent for commuting" without any indication you can't take it out on any public property, like a sidewalk or street.

Some vendors are clever enough to say "check your local laws" or "offroad", but many don't give any indication at all.

Generally once you get past $2,000 for a 2 wheel folding scooter, it's illegal to use last mile sidewalk cruising.

While we're on the subject, we really need helmet laws around using these. We all pay in ACC levies for idiots who hurt themselves on these.

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#2620920 13-Dec-2020 14:43

Are the power outputs allowed different for ebikes and scooters?

kingdragonfly

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#2620922 13-Dec-2020 14:48

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/vehicle-types/low-powered-vehicles/

"An electric scooter is designed in the style of a traditional push scooter, with a footboard, two or three wheels, a long steering handle and an electric auxiliary propulsion motor. In order to meet the requirements for a low-powered vehicle, the wheels must not exceed 355mm and the motor must have a maximum power output not exceeding 300W.

Please note: the maximum possible wattage stated of the electric motor is not necessarily the same as the maximum power output of the e-scooter.

A theoretical upper limit to the maximum power output can be determined by multiplying the battery voltage by the controller’s maximum amperage output and the motors peak efficiency. For example, a 600W motor with a peak efficiency of 90% and a 12V battery with a controller that has a maximum output of 21amps creates a maximum controller power output of 252W. Also considering the motor efficiency the maximum power output is 227W, even though the motor alone has a potential output of 600W.

The maximum power output of electric motors, and the systems controlling them, is complex and can often be lower than the maximum rating of any of the systems physical components. The best way to determine a scooters maximum power output is to rely on the manufacturers stated power output or, if you have the facilities available, physically test the system on a dynamometer.

E-scooters can be used on the footpath or the road – except in designated cycle lanes that are part of the road (which were designed for the sole use of cyclists).

On the footpath the user must:

operate the device in a careful and considerate manner
operate the device at a speed that does not put other footpath users at risk
give way to both pedestrians and drivers of mobility devices.
On the road, e-scooters must be operated as near as practicable to the edge of the roadway.

A helmet is not legally required to be worn when using an e-scooter, but is recommended."

andrewNZ

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#2620929 13-Dec-2020 15:16

I suspect there is nothing illegal about them.

from your quote

Please note: the maximum possible wattage stated of the electric motor is not necessarily the same as the maximum power output of the e-scooter.

A theoretical upper limit to the maximum power output can be determined by multiplying the battery voltage by the controller’s maximum amperage output and the motors peak efficiency. For example, a 600W motor with a peak efficiency of 90% and a 12V battery with a controller that has a maximum output of 21amps creates a maximum controller power output of 252W. Also considering the motor efficiency the maximum power output is 227W, even though the motor alone has a potential output of 600W.

The maximum power output of electric motors, and the systems controlling them, is complex and can often be lower than the maximum rating of any of the systems physical components

That combined with questionable Chinese power ratings, makes me think they are totally legal.

Oblivian

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#2620932 13-Dec-2020 15:42

Yeah. They're also often dual motor. And they simply double the max theoretical of each to make it sound zomgsuperawesomemoarpowerthantheirs

Would mr plod know that or how to use the power rating check above? I doubt

Ive seen guys with these exact ones in chc ripping through the cbd. Often faster than cars in the 30k areas.
Some wear full face helmets as they know better for the capability. They're also firmware limited. And you can flash them to bypass.

jonathan18

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#2620935 13-Dec-2020 15:48

Yeah, I have a feeling you're not comparing apples with apples in your example; this does highlight a key problem with the NZTA's power limit settings is that it means it's clear as mud as to whether a particular scooter meets these conditions or not.

It's not a problem just for the TM-sourced scooters, but also brands sold by main-street dealers; I ride a Zero 10 (well, I do when it doesn't have a puncture...), and I'm unsure if I'm legit when riding on the road (and I do mean road, as it's just too dangerous on the footpaths). That said, I never ride without a helmet and gloves, unlike others I see on their new toys...

Scott3

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#2621466 14-Dec-2020 17:36

The over 300W scooters are not illegal to sell, but are illegal to use on footpaths and roads (unless you road register it as a moped / motorbike which requires things like mirrors, horn etc.).

This issue has existed with overamped e-bikes well before the scooter exemption was put in place. Reality is that the beat police don't have access to dyno's to pull over and check people's e-scooters are under the required 300W.

Currently it seems that one can get away with riding a very high powered e-scooter without getting questioned by the police.

I think the laws in this area need to be re-done. It is currently a mess. A

Legal to use on roads:

300W e-bike (allowed on roads and in bike lanes, but not footpaths)
300W kick style scooter (allowed on footpaths and roads, but not bike lanes)
1.5KW yike bike

illegal to use on roads / footpaths:

300W seated style scooter
Segway
Mono-wheels
Balance boards
Powered skateboards.

We need some kind of all capturing law for relativity low powered personal transport. Current system of creating adhoc exemptions is not creating a good outcome. Perhaps get rid of the power limit and get a speed limit say 30km/h on road and 15km/h on footpaths for all electrically powered or assisted personally vehicles.

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#2621477 14-Dec-2020 17:52

Scott3:

illegal to use on roads / footpaths:

300W seated style scooter
We need some kind of all capturing law for relativity low powered personal transport. Current system of creating adhoc exemptions is not creating a good outcome. Perhaps get rid of the power limit and get a speed limit say 30km/h on road and 15km/h on footpaths for all electrically powered or assisted personally vehicles.

So if I have a kick style scooter but put a seat on it (although god knows why) then I can't ride it on the footpath anymore?

I agree - makes more sense to have a speed limit of say 30km/h but don't agree about 15km on footpaths - some wide, share with care, footpaths are safer to ride at 30km than on the road!

Scott3

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#2621482 14-Dec-2020 18:13

logo:

So if I have a kick style scooter but put a seat on it (although god knows why) then I can't ride it on the footpath anymore?

I agree - makes more sense to have a speed limit of say 30km/h but don't agree about 15km on footpaths - some wide, share with care, footpaths are safer to ride at 30km than on the road!

Nah, It just needs to be designed in the style of a traditional push scooter. If you retrofit a seat to one you are sweet.

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#2621544 14-Dec-2020 21:53

Scott3:

logo:

So if I have a kick style scooter but put a seat on it (although god knows why) then I can't ride it on the footpath anymore?

I agree - makes more sense to have a speed limit of say 30km/h but don't agree about 15km on footpaths - some wide, share with care, footpaths are safer to ride at 30km than on the road!

Nah, It just needs to be designed in the style of a traditional push scooter. If you retrofit a seat to one you are sweet.

huh? Are mobility scooters "seated styled scooters"? They go up to 160 amps at 24 volts (3.8kW) and are always on the footpaths.

I believe the 300W limit is maximum sustained power output. Power wheelchair/ scooters have always been rated as peek power (usually only for up to 15 seconds). The actual usable sustained power output is always much lower.

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#2621567 14-Dec-2020 23:38

i once bought a chinese 18000mAh battery .. that only had 600mAh

also bought another chinese android tablet with 1080p screen, 4GB RAM, 16GB ROM ... guess what it had

please don't ask why i didn't learn from the first one, just don't

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#2621670 15-Dec-2020 09:03

I think the rule of thumb being applied here by the Plod is thus:

Ride that thing like an idiot and we'll bust you and give you a good talking to about the dangers of being a complete knob.

Ride that nice scooter/skateboard/monowheel etc sensibly, whilst wearing appropriate safety gear and we'll nod appreciatively and may even enquire as to where you got it, if it's even slightly unusual.

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#2621690 15-Dec-2020 09:43

I believe the NZTA is planning updated rules to be introduced early next year. Changes include speed limits for scooters on footpaths, and the ability to use them in cycle lanes - I think the scooter must comply with a maximum handlebar width and use lights when in a cycle lane. From what I've heard, helmets will continue to be recommended but not compulsory.

The power restriction is pretty ridiculous - 300w is useless on Auckland's hills. Hopefully they'll remove the power limit, or raise it, and apply speed restrictions instead.

jonathan18

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#2621854 15-Dec-2020 11:16

Handsomedan:

I think the rule of thumb being applied here by the Plod is thus:

Ride that thing like an idiot and we'll bust you and give you a good talking to about the dangers of being a complete knob.

Ride that nice scooter/skateboard/monowheel etc sensibly, whilst wearing appropriate safety gear and we'll nod appreciatively and may even enquire as to where you got it, if it's even slightly unusual.

This is certainly in line with my own experience. I’ve passed or been passed by many cop cars while on my scooter, and that includes while riding in the cycle lane; that I rarely ride on the footpath (and if I do it’s at a crawl), I always wear a helmet and have the lights on, and 90% of the time have a reflective jacket on, and even have and use indicators is the reason I’m sure they’re not interested. I did get pulled over once at night, but yeah the cop seemed more intrigued than concerned.

But, yeah, new rules are well overdue, provided they are balanced.

jpoc

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#2622278 16-Dec-2020 01:58

BlueOwl:

I believe the NZTA is planning updated rules to be introduced early next year. Changes include speed limits for scooters on footpaths, and the ability to use them in cycle lanes - I think the scooter must comply with a maximum handlebar width and use lights when in a cycle lane. From what I've heard, helmets will continue to be recommended but not compulsory.

The power restriction is pretty ridiculous - 300w is useless on Auckland's hills. Hopefully they'll remove the power limit, or raise it, and apply speed restrictions instead.

They seem to taking it seriously. One subject under consideration is the power rating for hover-boards where a higher power is needed to provide the balance functions in addition to the propulsion.

Scott3

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#2622505 16-Dec-2020 10:29

debo:

huh? Are mobility scooters "seated styled scooters"? They go up to 160 amps at 24 volts (3.8kW) and are always on the footpaths.

I believe the 300W limit is maximum sustained power output. Power wheelchair/ scooters have always been rated as peek power (usually only for up to 15 seconds). The actual usable sustained power output is always much lower.

I was more talking about 50cc / motorbike style e-scooters, than mobility ones.

Different rules for mobility devices. There power limit is a few kW. But they must be designed, not merely adapted for those with mobility issues. So something like a segway, or a two seater mini car from china don't count.

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