Nissan Leaf without homebase (on-road parking only)

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boingoboingo

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#285687 10-May-2021 12:10

Hi there,

Would like to get a Nissan Leaf for our second car, wife needs it for work, but only in town (Welly). So will never need to do more than 20 kms per day, mostly something like 5-10 kms.
This would be a perfect opportunity to get a Nissan Leaf (used, maybe 2015 or 2014).

Unfortunately we have no off-street parking, not even opportunity to run a cable over the sidewalk (which wouldn't be ideal or allowed anyway).
There's one public charger in the general area (Pak'n'save, quick charger), but other than that there's nothing. Sidenote: Why can't Council install chargers at libraries and other public carparks? We buy almost all non-grocery items online, so never go to a mall or similar where there's charging.

Q: Is it feasible to get a Leaf and charge it on the fast-charger 2 x per week while doing shopping at Pak'n'Save? Or will the quick charger destroy the batteries if not occasionally charged by slow/standard charge?

This is frustrating: It would be a perfect use-case for an electric car. I don't want another gas-guzzler, but our neighbourhood has no reliable/convenient public transport. Without driveways/garages I am not sure how people can make EVs work.

Are there any councils in NZ that have creative approaches to help solve problems like this? Wellington does have a pilot program where they installed some public chargers in the suburbs, but that's also not ideal: You're giving up public parking spaces to private companies, which charge a premium (so disincentive on the savings aspect of EV) and they are mostly empty, because (my guess) people don't want to risk buying electric cars if they don't know that these spaces will be reliably available to use.

Would it be possible to ask for a power outlet installed on traffic lights? As a trial? Anything other councils have tried that works?

Thx

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#2705443 10-May-2021 12:35

Wellington city council have installed a number of suburban chargers around Wellington, have a look at Plugshare.com to see where they are (most are not rapid chargers)

timmmay

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#2705453 10-May-2021 12:42

Johnsonville Library has chargers, and Tesla have fast chargers going into Countdown on Johnsonville Rd. There are more chargers every day. I wonder if car parking buildings have them - if so I expect you'd have to move your car after it's charged.

I don't own an EV so I'm guessing here, but I know a bit about batteries. Fast charging itself isn't a huge problem. The key according to my reading is keeping the battery level about about 30%, and not charging over about 80%. If you're only doing 10-20km I guess you can get away with charging it once or maybe twice a week.

SheriffNZ

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#2705455 10-May-2021 12:46

Sounds like an ebike may also fit the use case, no issues with parking or finding places to charge them?

boingoboingo

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#2705478 10-May-2021 13:12

DjShadow:

Wellington city council have installed a number of suburban chargers around Wellington, have a look at Plugshare.com to see where they are (most are not rapid chargers)

Yes, unfortunately there's none within walking distance.
While I appreciate them trying (it is an experiment after all) I wonder how useful these really are.

This is the same issue that faces public transport: If you can't rely on it being available when you need it, then... you can't rely on it for your transport and again end up with needing to have a car. Are you expected to be around to move your car after it slow-charges? Most of these public stations seems to be empty.

Also, these chargers are not installed by the council. The council essentially gives the parking spaces to a private company (ChargeNet), who then charge you a premium. Plus the neighbourhood loses out on previously available parking space, which anyway is not easy to come by in the inner suburbs. Of course I understand that the council can't afford/does not have the know-how to install their own charging network, but it's not ideal.

Purely relying on public charging just seems very challenging. I guess over the next few years there will be a push to get more charging stations into the communities.

boingoboingo

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#2705482 10-May-2021 13:17

timmmay:

Johnsonville Library has chargers, and Tesla have fast chargers going into Countdown on Johnsonville Rd. There are more chargers every day. I wonder if car parking buildings have them - if so I expect you'd have to move your car after it's charged.

I don't own an EV so I'm guessing here, but I know a bit about batteries. Fast charging itself isn't a huge problem. The key according to my reading is keeping the battery level about about 30%, and not charging over about 80%. If you're only doing 10-20km I guess you can get away with charging it once or maybe twice a week.

That's interesting, I thought that quick-charging damages the batteries. But I've also read that this is mainly the case if the batteries are hot when being charged (i.e. on a longer road trip).

So in our case it would be a quick 2 kms trip to Pak n Save, not enough to heat up the battery packs. And yes, I'd be thinking of using the quick-charger to top up to 80%.

Encouraging to hear that quick chargers are not an issue.

alasta

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#2705485 10-May-2021 13:19

boingoboingo:

Also, these chargers are not installed by the council. The council essentially gives the parking spaces to a private company (ChargeNet), who then charge you a premium. Plus the neighbourhood loses out on previously available parking space, which anyway is not easy to come by in the inner suburbs.

I think it's likely that owners of combustion engine vehicles will continue to park there even if there is clear signage stating that it's for electric vehicles only. There is currently very little enforcement around vehicles parked on the footpath, and I can't see this being any different.

Scott3

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#2705516 10-May-2021 14:21

As a 2014 Nissan leaf owner, I would say don't do it... (Edit: unless you have workplace charging)

Being able to conveniently charge at home is a critical component of easy EV ownership, partially with shorter range EV's like a 24kWh nissan leaf.

Regarding the question about the battery being "destroyed" by frequent fast charging. It is accepted that fast charging does have a negitive impact on battery health, but other factors such as living somewhere really hot (Palm springs USA), or doing more than two fast charges per day (overheating the battery pack) have a bigger impact.

For reference my 2014 Leaf has had over 1100 fast charges, and the battery health is at 75%. This is in the bottom 5% of 2014 cars, but still fine for our needs. Note that 2011 - 2013 cars had a different battery chemistry that was more prone to bad degradation.

Having been near exclusively fast charged is reasonably common for used leaf's out of japan. A combination of limited charging ability at home (either to do with the current capacity fed to each home, or availability of off street parking).

My leaf has about a 110km range if driven gently in good conditions. I charge to 80% on weekdays so this becomes 88km range. Keeping say 30% of the pack as a reserve for unusual needs, that leaves 55km as a working range. Would require charging more than once a week if doing 10km/day on average...

The key issues with not having home charging for a leaf are:

Paid public fast charging is substantially more expensive than petrol for an efficient car. (especially so if you want to charge to a high state of charge as the last bit of charging is quite slow, so the time based charge adds up fast). Coupled with the higher purchase price of say a 2014 leaf vs say a 2014 toyota aqua, it is not financially a good bet.
Convenience - Going somewhere special to charge your leaf say twice a week is quickly going to become a chore.

Given you are in wellington you could put in an application for one of the trial on street slow EV charging stations:

https://wellington.govt.nz/-/media/parking-roads-and-transport/parking-and-roads/smart-transport/files/residential_street_electric_vehicle_charger_trial_application_sept_2019.pdf

I don't think it is correct that the space is "gifted" to a private company. I understand the chargers are owned by the council. While a signup to charge.net.nz is required, I think their role is to manage the billing process etc for the council. I imagine if on street charging becomes common the council will set up their own billing system, or tender out the work regularly to avoid a company making excessive money from it.

The 40c/kWh is likely fair given that daily connection fees. kWh fees, maintenance, comms, billing all need to be covered, but it still works out quite expensive compared to the cira 17c/kWh marginal cost of power at my place.

There are examples where EV chargers are integrated with lamp posts, but be aware that they aren't simple outlets. NZ standards don't allow simple outlets to be installed for the purposes of public EV charging (outside of accommodation). They are EVSE's with safety features (230v pins aren't live until the EV confirms earth continuity etc), and have comms links to allow for status reporting and billing.

Frankly I would recommend a toyota aqua or nissan note e-power instead at the moment.

Perhaps in a decades time destinatio, workplace and on street EV charging will be a lot more mature, combined with longer range EV's making EV ownership without home charging more viable. If you had budget for say a kona with a 450km range, fortnightly charging at the supermarket may not be too much of a chore, but currently they are $$$.

Edit: - Should note that there are many examples of EV owners that make it work without on street charging. But you need to be quite dedicated to the cause. Also works better with an EV with longer range, and faster fast charging ability (Tesla model 3?)

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afe66

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#2705518 10-May-2021 14:30

I have owned a leaf for 4 years but charge at home in Dunedin.

Not having home charging source will be a hassle but not insurmountable, but I think you have to accept it will be hassle so you must genuinely want to do this and its not you signing the other half up but you won't be one actually affected.

Or as a friends wife said " if you want an ev you sell your car and buy one, don't sell my one"

Look on plugshare for all the power sources available in your area not just the fast rapid chargers. Pay attention as to whether they are type 2 cabled vrs type 2 socket. Older leafs have a type 1 socket in them so to connect a type 2 power socket to type 1 leaf you will need antypen1 to 2 cable.

Looking on plugshare will show you all the charging sources around your area.

You won't be able to use a charger with inbuilt type 2 cable if your leaf only has type 1 socket.

So if you don't have a newer leaf with type 2 socket, then seriously consider whether to budget for a type 2 to type1 cable especially if such a power source exists. Also the lost modern leafs may charge at 32A or 7kwh

The money advantages of ev will disappear if you plan on using high speed commercial charger.

If you are planning on using charger at supermarket, for the next month or so, look to see whether the charger is currently unused to get a feel for whether charging at supermarket is an option.

Do either have possibility of trickle charging at work ? Just run an extension cord but need to talk to boss.

Also if on facebook, look to see if theirs a Wellington ev user group to get better real world experience in your area.

You really have to want to do this if your looking at an older leaf. My gut feeling is otherwise the answer is no uts too hard and expensive.

Chch Council has lots of slower ac chargers in their parking buildings.

Jase2985

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#2705572 10-May-2021 16:13

It doesnt sound like a Pure EV is for you, Maybe a plug in hybrid would be the way to go.

Eva888

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#2705673 10-May-2021 17:08

We do approx 650k for $50 fill up about every 26 days in a Toyota Aqua Hybrid. Rough estimate.

Scott3

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#2705681 10-May-2021 17:34

Jase2985:

It doesnt sound like a Pure EV is for you, Maybe a plug in hybrid would be the way to go.

The shorter electric range of most Plug in hybrids means having more frequent access to charging (relative to pure EV's) is ideal.

Something like a 2012 prius plug in might do 15km, a 2013 Outlander PHEV might do 30km real world on electric (52km rated new, but this is regarded as optimistic and their batteries degrade) .

The latter would be ideal for somebody with say a 25km round trip commute (or 50km if they could charge at both ends), but for OP would mean they would need to go out to charge the car every 2 days or so if they wanted to run electric only for most of their driving. To onerous in my eyes.

Non plug in hybrids are cheaper and typical more efficient when running on petrol than say an out lander PHEV. Really does seem to be the way to go for OP.

Eva888: We do approx 650k for $50 fill up about every 26 days in a Toyota Aqua Hybrid. Rough estimate.

Given OP's low mileage something like this does seem to he the way to go. at 10km average a day, a tank of fuel would last over two months.

shk292

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#2705745 10-May-2021 19:38

If you're only driving 10km a day, that's less than $500 per year on petrol in an average car. Really hard to see how the cost of an EV is going to stack up. I can't make the numbers work and I do about 20Mm per year. Better off just driving a moderately economical car and if you want to do some environmental good, donate some money to a tree planting fund or insulate someone's house with it

ANglEAUT

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#2705772 10-May-2021 21:09

I have to echo shk292 here. With EV's being more expensive than ICE vehicles, you really have to do the numbers. Sure, it feels good to do your bit for the environment and you pay practically nothing for a service (mine have always been <$70).

Somehow, you have to recover that initial purchase price somehow. In an EV, that is mostly done by saving on fuel. To save on fuel, you have to drive km's & km's. I do 40 000 - 50 000km per year in my Leaf. According to Flip the fleet, that's +-$700 savings per month on fuel. With your estimated 6 000km's per year, your savings is not great.

Please keep this GZ community vibrant by contributing in a constructive & respectful manner.

nova

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#2705784 10-May-2021 21:39

You probably have the idea by know, but I'll add my 2c. It would be doable but quite frustrating to only use public chargers. Fast chargers are expensive, around 75c / kwH in an older leaf (25c for the power and 50c for the 2 minutes it takes to put it in). You can use cheaper / free slower chargers, but it depends how much you value your time.

I own a leaf and do 50km a day in it, and it stacks up for me financially providing I charge it over night at cheap night rates. If I used fast chargers I would be losing money. You are also trading off cheaper running costs against faster depreciation. You also have to factor in RUC which will be levied at some point, and quite possibly from the end of this year (I haven't seen the latest, but when I bought the leaf that was my expectation).

Finally i don't believe an electric car is significantly beneficial to the environment in the short term, if we swapped out all the cars for electric then we would be burning more coal in the coal fired power stations, and the car itself has a not insignificant environmental cost. But I also don't think they are significantly worse for the environment either, and if you can get one at the right price they are very nice to drive.

gzt

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#2705800 10-May-2021 23:19

Apart from any other considerations EV is just nicer to drive than equivalent petrol. If you already take a car shopping at a non-peak time or can do your social media catchup at a comfy gas station once or twice a week, or some quiet reading time at a free charger it's a no brainer.

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