Louis Vuitton Cup TV (and America's Cup) Coverage Discussion

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#3299239 20-Oct-2024 20:00

tdgeek:

A great win. Im not a sailor, my expertise is based on watching AC for years.

We were just a bit too good. As I posted recently, we lose the start but we are still there, even if we lose the race. If we win the start, its goodbye. The boats seem pretty even, so its down to the sailors.

The sailors won

A fact that seems to be conveniently overlooked by some analysts.

This guy professes to be a pro analyst and yet attributes the win to the NZ boat being faster.

https://youtu.be/8UQzx688o0E?si=YqRPWnpjnKvoMcHN

In fact the Kiwis won because they were a better sailing team. Ainslie and his mate were just outsailed, Olympic Golds notwithstanding.

In another interview with the British 2IC he said the Kiwi boat seemed to be more automated - trimming sails etc. being done with button presses while the British boat had more manual ald therefore slower processes. Interesting comment.

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#3299244 20-Oct-2024 20:13

lchiu7:
tdgeek:

A great win. Im not a sailor, my expertise is based on watching AC for years.

We were just a bit too good. As I posted recently, we lose the start but we are still there, even if we lose the race. If we win the start, its goodbye. The boats seem pretty even, so its down to the sailors.

The sailors won

A fact that seems to be conveniently overlooked by some analysts.

This guy professes to be a pro analyst and yet attributes the win to the NZ boat being faster.

https://youtu.be/8UQzx688o0E?si=YqRPWnpjnKvoMcHN

In fact the Kiwis won because they were a better sailing team. Ainslie and his mate were just outsailed, Olympic Golds notwithstanding.

In another interview with the British 2IC he said the Kiwi boat seemed to be more automated - trimming sails etc. being done with button presses while the British boat had more manual ald therefore slower processes. Interesting comment.

If you win 7-2 the boat is almost always faster than the opposition. Nett VMG is nett VMG.

The cup is always won by the faster boat. You can’t make stupid mistakes but all the sailors are excellent.

Tom Morris is a very good amateur yachtsman with a YouTube channel not a “professional analyst”.

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#3299276 20-Oct-2024 22:50

mentalinc:

THE AMERICAS CUP, IS, STILL NEW ZEALAND'S CUP - Peter Montgomery Voice, much better than Stephen McIvor lack lustre statements, 50-100m before the finish line.

Don't get me started again lol. Yes it was pretty much a foregone conclusion at the point McIvor started his victory speech but it's laughable (and embarrassing) that it came roughly 12 seconds before ETNZ actually crossed the finish line.

Looking at the footage again just now, the graphics clearly show ETNZ had only sailed 7/8ths of the leg at that point. The leg being 1.7 nautical miles, they were still around 400 metres from the finish line.

400 metres is plenty of distance to have a woopsie, fall off the foils and lose the race. Not likely, but still possible, thus making it a stupid faux pas from a professional commentator.

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#3299280 20-Oct-2024 23:39

lchiu7:

Well I won't talk about the win, which is great, but the commentary.

Prefacing this comment with the proviso I know very little about sailing but follow the AC every few years or so.

In the final I thought I heard three male voices. One the normal commentator whose names eludes me but clearly has liitle expert sailing knowledge and had this habit of pronouncing Vuiton as "V' "you-ee" ton with a pronounced unnecessary accent. And his favourite term appears to be "there is nothing in it".

And then during a final interview he said something like "I am not an expert in yachting but..." or words to that effect.

The other commentator appeared to be an Aussie, spoke in a more measured tone and appeared to be an expert. Don't know who that person is but he provided useful comments.

I did recognise Peter Lester whose expert views I thought were very useful and of course Shirley :-)

Commentator with little sailing knowledge = Stephen McIvor. From his bio, it sounds like the first time he's ever had anything to do with sailing was commentating the 2021 AM Cup in Auckland. I'd have expected him to know a bit more this time around....

Aussie commentator = Glenn Ashby, Beijing Olympic silver medalist & champion sailor with 15 world titles. He was part of Emirates Team NZ for the previous 3 America's Cup campaigns in 2013, 2017 (skipper with Pete Burling) and 2021, and was part of the winning BMW Oracle team in the 2010 cup. So a total of 3 AM Cup wins under his belt. His status as "Honourary Kiwi" was cemented in 2019 when he became a member of the NZ Order of Merit for services to sailing, despite being an Australian citizen. In 2023 he said goodbye to America's Cup racing but he's still involved with ETNZ, having piloted their land yacht Horonuku in both of their wind assisted world land speed records (222.43kph and 225.58kph). So yes, quite the expert I would say.

I don't recall hearing any other male commentators other than Peter Lester. He was tactician aboard KZ1 in the 1988 AM Cup and also sailed on NZL-39 "Tag Hauer", representing the Tutukaka South Pacific Yacht Club in the 1995 Louis Vuitton Cup in San Diego. He was also a coach for the spanish challenge at the 1992 Louis Vuitton Cup.

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#3299281 21-Oct-2024 00:11

Handle9:

If you win 7-2 the boat is almost always faster than the opposition. Nett VMG is nett VMG.

The cup is always won by the faster boat. You can’t make stupid mistakes but all the sailors are excellent.

The stats from the final race are staggering:

NZL vs GBR:

Top speed 42.8kn vs 41.7kn

Average VMG 23kn vs 22.9 - in real terms, ETNZ was 0.1852kph (or roughly 0.5 metres per second) faster on average over the entire course. By my calculations, at the end of the 26.6 minute race, that 0.1kn difference in VMG alone put ETNZ ahead at the finish line by 798 metres, distances being equal - see below...

Manoeuvers (gybes & tacks) 27 vs 28

Distance sailed 26,865m vs 26,886m

That last stat is pretty mind-blowing to me. A 26km race sailed at times on opposite sides of the course, yet the delta of distance sailed by each boat was just 21 metres - less than a boat length. This proves that VMG was overwhelmingly the deciding factor in this race despite the seemingly miniscule difference.

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#3299282 21-Oct-2024 03:41

Handle9:

[Snip]

If you win 7-2 the boat is almost always faster than the opposition. Nett VMG is nett VMG.

What is nett VMG? Surely it’s a nett figure by definition with nothing to be ‘nett of’.

Sometimes I just sit and think. Other times I just sit.

Handle9

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#3299283 21-Oct-2024 03:53

eracode:
Handle9:

[Snip]

If you win 7-2 the boat is almost always faster than the opposition. Nett VMG is nett VMG.

What is nett VMG? Surely it’s a nett figure by definition with nothing to be ‘nett of’.

There’s VMG per race, upwind VMG, downwind VMG. There’s straight line VMG, VMG when tacking and gybing. There’s plenty of ways to slice VMG.

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#3299285 21-Oct-2024 06:17

Handle9:
eracode:

Handle9:

[Snip]

If you win 7-2 the boat is almost always faster than the opposition. Nett VMG is nett VMG.

What is nett VMG? Surely it’s a nett figure by definition with nothing to be ‘nett of’.

There’s VMG per race, upwind VMG, downwind VMG. There’s straight line VMG, VMG when tacking and gybing. There’s plenty of ways to slice VMG.

But they all mean the same thing and it’s a net measurement in and of itself - there’s no concept of gross VMG. Unless I’m mistaken, there’s no stats for different types or directions of VMG. It’s simply a measurement of your speed vector towards a defined point when you’re heading in a different direction.

Sometimes I just sit and think. Other times I just sit.

Handle9

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#3299288 21-Oct-2024 06:26

If you want to be incredibly pedantic VMG is an instantaneous measure of velocity made good. It’s not a cumulative measurement.

VMG = V x cos(X)

If you’re not happy with that, well Jim, I just don’t know what to tell you.

lchiu7

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#3299307 21-Oct-2024 09:26

Wheelbarrow01:

Handle9:

If you win 7-2 the boat is almost always faster than the opposition. Nett VMG is nett VMG.

The cup is always won by the faster boat. You can’t make stupid mistakes but all the sailors are excellent.

The stats from the final race are staggering:

NZL vs GBR:

Top speed 42.8kn vs 41.7kn

Average VMG 23kn vs 22.9 - in real terms, ETNZ was 0.1852kph (or roughly 0.5 metres per second) faster on average over the entire course. By my calculations, at the end of the 26.6 minute race, that 0.1kn difference in VMG alone put ETNZ ahead at the finish line by 798 metres, distances being equal - see below...

Manoeuvers (gybes & tacks) 27 vs 28

Distance sailed 26,865m vs 26,886m

That last stat is pretty mind-blowing to me. A 26km race sailed at times on opposite sides of the course, yet the delta of distance sailed by each boat was just 21 metres - less than a boat length. This proves that VMG was overwhelmingly the deciding factor in this race despite the seemingly miniscule difference.

They are facinating statistics. Another comment i read (can't find it now) was NZ appeared to have the better luck is getting favourable wind shifts except, they pretty much always got them which suggests it's not luck but the skill of the 4 folks on the boat.

Staying in Wellington. Check out my AirBnB in the Wellington CBD. https://www.airbnb.co.nz/h/wellycbd PM me and mention GZ to get a 15% discount and no AirBnB charges.

eracode

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#3299310 21-Oct-2024 09:46

Handle9: If you want to be incredibly pedantic VMG is an instantaneous measure of velocity made good. It’s not a cumulative measurement.

VMG = V x cos(X)

If you’re not happy with that, well Jim, I just don’t know what to tell you.

OK enough. Pedantry is one of my many failings. I am well-aware of the maths and sailed and raced a lot in earlier years - so I do know exactly what VMG is.

Sometimes I just sit and think. Other times I just sit.

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#3299324 21-Oct-2024 10:21

lchiu7:

They are facinating statistics. Another comment i read (can't find it now) was NZ appeared to have the better luck is getting favourable wind shifts except, they pretty much always got them which suggests it's not luck but the skill of the 4 folks on the boat.

Yea it's definitely skill over luck. Peter Burling and co have years of experience sailing in Auckland's shifty wind conditions, so they have finely honed their skills of being able to see the wind shifts on the surface of the water before they arrive over the deck of the boat. This means they can accurately plot the best course sometimes minutes in advance, and they adapt on the fly to always position their boat in the best wind pressure and direction relative to where they want to get to.

It was suggested by Glenn Ashby that the GBR team have not had as much experience in such shifty wind conditions, and that likely played a role in the outcome.

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#3299329 21-Oct-2024 10:44

Well done to ETNZ, and thanks to Ineos for being a great challenger.

I think ETNZ had a better sailing package - Sails, Controls and Foils - and a better 'team'. Their communication was amazing and their ability to spot the wind was great. Nathan is known as the Wind Whisperer.

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#3299534 21-Oct-2024 16:51

As a well-known sailing expert and often-quoted sports commenter, I would like to say "Well done, Team NZ. You raced a better overall America's Cup campaing than the challenger and because of that you won".

Also, on the subject of VMG - I had that once. It's quite painful and the rash remains far longer than you would like.

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#3301071 24-Oct-2024 15:34

Getting slightly OT but as the OP I can guess I can do this :-) Do we want the next round to be in Auckland (somebody even mischievously suggested Welliington as it needs the infusion of tourists :-) ) or is compeition so far away from being something that Kiwis support that we don't really care where it's hosted? Looking back at a doco on the AC from when NZ first won the cup and the red socks campaign, it is fairly clear the excitement has gone from the cup as far as most Kiwis are concerned.

Staying in Wellington. Check out my AirBnB in the Wellington CBD. https://www.airbnb.co.nz/h/wellycbd PM me and mention GZ to get a 15% discount and no AirBnB charges.

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