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6325 posts

Uber Geek

#2849845 13-Jan-2022 12:39

List of New Zealand Test cricket records - Wikipedia (bowling)

So Hadlee achieved it in 25 (Wagner got 99 in 25). KJ has NZ record of fastest to 50 wickets (9 tests). So if he gets 41 in his next 13 he will be the fastest to 50. That is 5.45, so even if he drops off a bit he should do it within about 20 or so matches. He could even achieve it while on tour this year. More likely vs Pak in November. 60 wickets in 11 matches, no wonder he is World #3 now

Pretty damning of how good NZ is right now when you have our 3rd, 4th and 5th highest wicket takers along with the fastest man to 50 wickets and currently #3 all in the team at the same time, as well as 3 of your top 4 batsmen all time (Latham, Williamson, Taylor) and another potential all time great getting started (Conway) and your best Wicket Keeper in history only just retired. Just incredible run of players, and its far from over.

Shane Bond fastest ODI bowler to 100 wickets. And would easily have been the fastest to 100 test wickets with 87 from 18 tests at an Avg up there with 'Paddles' @22.09. On skill diversity, imo he was probably our best bowler of all time, could swing it both ways and bowled at 150+. Such is the nature of extreme pace, injury prone. What a shame, and then of course the drama when he wanted to play IPL which is now considered normal part of a professional elite cricketers income.

Hadlee, even now still has the most wickets against all of the big teams except for SA (Chris Martin), various reasons for that occurring obviously. Aus, WI (best team in his Era), Eng, Ind, Pak. On Avg and context Hadlee for me still has the best Innings figures of 9/52 vs Aus in Brisbane (he caught the final wicket, should have dropped it as was bowling at the other end lol). I think thats the match he has NZs best match figures from as well with 15 (for not much).

Im hoping NZ grass roots is in good shape and cricket participation increases along with NZ putting it up there with Rugby for summer and despite our population we can keep producing world class players based on desire to want to be a "Black Cap" just like in union its simply desire and grass roots rugby that keep our tiny nation at or near the top of the sport since its inception.

Jas777

838 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2850167 13-Jan-2022 15:03

TeaLeaf:

List of New Zealand Test cricket records - Wikipedia (bowling)

So Hadlee achieved it in 25 (Wagner got 99 in 25). KJ has NZ record of fastest to 50 wickets (9 tests). So if he gets 41 in his next 13 he will be the fastest to 50. That is 5.45, so even if he drops off a bit he should do it within about 20 or so matches. He could even achieve it while on tour this year. More likely vs Pak in November. 60 wickets in 11 matches, no wonder he is World #3 now

Pretty damning of how good NZ is right now when you have our 3rd, 4th and 5th highest wicket takers along with the fastest man to 50 wickets and currently #3 all in the team at the same time, as well as 3 of your top 4 batsmen all time (Latham, Williamson, Taylor) and another potential all time great getting started (Conway) and your best Wicket Keeper in history only just retired. Just incredible run of players, and its far from over.

Shane Bond fastest ODI bowler to 100 wickets. And would easily have been the fastest to 100 test wickets with 87 from 18 tests at an Avg up there with 'Paddles' @22.09. On skill diversity, imo he was probably our best bowler of all time, could swing it both ways and bowled at 150+. Such is the nature of extreme pace, injury prone. What a shame, and then of course the drama when he wanted to play IPL which is now considered normal part of a professional elite cricketers income.

Hadlee, even now still has the most wickets against all of the big teams except for SA (Chris Martin), various reasons for that occurring obviously. Aus, WI (best team in his Era), Eng, Ind, Pak. On Avg and context Hadlee for me still has the best Innings figures of 9/52 vs Aus in Brisbane (he caught the final wicket, should have dropped it as was bowling at the other end lol). I think thats the match he has NZs best match figures from as well with 15 (for not much).

Im hoping NZ grass roots is in good shape and cricket participation increases along with NZ putting it up there with Rugby for summer and despite our population we can keep producing world class players based on desire to want to be a "Black Cap" just like in union its simply desire and grass roots rugby that keep our tiny nation at or near the top of the sport since its inception.

Not sure if they are the greatest bowlers or just the ones who have had the most games. Really hard to compare eras.

You have to wonder what Hadlee's total wicket numbers would have been if he played the extra tests that they have now, less of course the dodgy ones he got from Fred Goodall. He didn't actually catch the last wicket, he caught the 9th dismissal of the innings.

The batters are lucky also in that they tend to play on better wickets, Imagine what Crowe's final stats would look like if he played on current wickets v the slow low ones he played on.

If the team of the 80s early 90s was fully fledged professionals like players today and they played today's team it would be a good match up.

NZ cricket is in ok shape, a few average years will be on the horizon soon as don't think the depth of talent is coming through, a lot of 1 in 4 good innings guys around.

TeaLeaf

6325 posts

Uber Geek

#2850246 13-Jan-2022 16:29

Jas777:

If the team of the 80s early 90s was fully fledged professionals like players today and they played today's team it would be a good match up.

NZ cricket is in ok shape, a few average years will be on the horizon soon as don't think the depth of talent is coming through, a lot of 1 in 4 good innings guys around.

100%.

Hadlee also was very average early in his career, the first 5 years (20 tests) he averaged 33, to end up on ~22 shows how concentrated that period of where he was by far the best bowler in the world was (avgd ~19 during that period). He had no swing, I just remember he bowled that top of 5th stump all at med-fast ball after ball, which had players having to put the bat out and with just a tiny bit of movement off the seam he just destroyed teams. He did hit the stumps on occasion too as well as LBW. Glenn Mcgrath was a classic example of effective switching to the method Hadlee of consistency stump to stump, or the channel as some would call it. Mcgrath wasnt fast either but he was endlessly accurate at making batsmen play they ball and just let the surface provide and inch or two of movement which is all that is needed.

I was going to say the same thing about Crowe, also keep in mind, whilst he had an OK team, he had nobody close to 7 batsmen Kane has had around him during this golden period (since 2014 to Watling retiring). Crowe would have been a mid 50s, possibly more type. It reminds me of Brian Lara who started at the end of the WI era when they were easily the best team for a decade or more. Lara was the last man standing and then got dumped with captaincy. He was so talented, but he was also ultra aggressive. I think he would have loved t20 cricket. He would have been a Steve Smith type avg imo in a solid team like we currently have or they had prior in the WI, that 400no Test score says it all rofl. A run hungry machine.

One player that got left over after Ian Smith retired was Bryan Young, he sticks in my mind, not sure why, but avg ~33 back when we were rubbish post Crowe was pretty good. He didnt score many tons but I remember the 267no, if had more support could have been our first triple ton.

What you say about the 1 in 4 is what I dont like about Nicholls. I dont think he is our most consistant 5th best batsman in NZ, I think he is being selected because they dont know what else to do, much like Blundell. Do you give Cam Fletcher a go, hes been in the runs in recent FC seasons, Cleaver is a bit older and whilst has a great FC average I just feel he is out of the eyes of the selectors. Interesting to hear Katy Martin push for Cam Fletcher when they were discussing the middle and Blundell's role, she got shut down pretty quickly, something like, well lets give Blundell a go at keeper. IMO he will end up averaging ~25 with the gloves at best, hes not one of these players who improve at test level, not as a keeper batsman. You really need to a batsman keeper to avg near 40 like Watling did. In that regard Cleaver would be a better choice. But I feel like Fletcher would be a more consistent run scorer at Test level than Blundell. You dont need the big tons, just to be able to score runs and stop the innings getting into the batsman. I think Mitchell is a pretty good choice at 6. He will be a good candidate for a 40avg and be able to conssitently stop the rot, but he needs somebody else that produces cameos consistently at 5 and 7. I think GP and Ravindra are also going to be that Batting-PT spin option. The main reason Im pro GP is he is getting experience outside of NZ and he is a positive player, his SR in FC reflects that. So hes not going to sit around waiting to get out, which is what Nicholls seems to do a lot. wave the bat at one you could hit for a run or just leave, he seems often stuck mentally on which way to play.

I think with that soft middle order we are going to struggle to be so dominant as we will be heavily reliant on our top 4 not getting out and scoring big, which just wont happen, more times they will score 300 and we will need 100-200 from the final 6. The first innings at Bay Oval ws a classic example of how much that let us down compared to when the top order just pile on the runs in the Hagley Oval innings. We should have scored 400 minimum and possibly 500, but i was counting on our middle to perform like Watling was still in the team.

For the sake of scoring runs and being consistent I would go 5. GP 6. Mitchell 7. Fletcher, but also be putting a quiet word into KJ's ear about applying himself with the bat. Hes much better than just a tail, not expecting him to avg 35, but 25-30 is in his skill set IF he applies himself.

TeaLeaf

6325 posts

Uber Geek

#2850981 14-Jan-2022 20:18

Marnus dropped on 0 in the slips and then clean bowled in the most comical way ever in the 40s, Im sure it will be on youtube. Aus now 84/4 and looking very flaky against the Eng pace bowlers. Im not sure how fair it is for nationas like us who dont play as many tests or tests in a series, when Aus win 4-1 or maybe 5-1. it makes it very hard to water down their win % if they play so many tests. Same goes with Ind and I would say Eng but the Ashes has prob shot their chances.

That clip of Ind accusing SA Superspot TV of cheating, coming up to the stump mic and shouting bad sportsmanship fro, Kholi and Ashwin is just disgraceful. The ICC should come down hard on that. SSport do not produce the Hawkeye, they just display it, it is an independant company which Ind are accusing doctored the LBW to make the ball go over the stumps. I have to say it did look plum LBW, but you cant be acting like that in Test cricket, especially the captain, ever, especially when the accusation is so absurd, first it was their LBW Ashwin accused SA TV of cheating then Kholi was referring to only showing the Aus sandgate vision and not SA, a direct accusation based on rumour of a test series he had no involvement in. Hasnt Kholi been in trouble prior for his actions on field?

I do think they should be asking to have that hawkeye explained how it had the angle so steep. It could be legit so always best just to take things off field, but can understand their frustration, no excuse but it was a weird one from hawkeye.

Dochart

804 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2851007 14-Jan-2022 20:25

Gotta say that was definitely plum LBW. Technology isn’t always going to be perfect but that should have been out from video footage and not Hawkeye.

Feel for Virat and the team. Thinking back on the ODI CWC 19 Williamson should have questioned the referee and reviewed it if possible. When you playing knockout games and especially in a final it pays to double check and ask.

TeaLeaf

6325 posts

Uber Geek

#2851012 14-Jan-2022 20:36

Dochart: Gotta say that was definitely plum LBW. Technology isn’t always going to be perfect but that should have been out from video footage and not Hawkeye.

I do feel for them to, but Hawkeye has been around a long time and never seen one like that. If things dont go your way, should you behave like that about it on field?

The other question is, making an accusation about a series you were not even involved in by the Captain, that is not even relevant and you cant go around making such accusations on TV. Do you think that was in the spirit of the game?

Dochart

804 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2851013 14-Jan-2022 20:42

TeaLeaf:
Dochart: Gotta say that was definitely plum LBW. Technology isn’t always going to be perfect but that should have been out from video footage and not Hawkeye.

I do feel for them to, but Hawkeye has been around a long time and never seen one like that. If things dont go your way, should you behave like that about it on field?

The other question is, making an accusation about a series you were not even involved in by the Captain, that is not even relevant and you cant go around making such accusations on TV. Do you think that was in the spirit of the game?

It wasn’t Supersport fault so who the they were directing the blame too was uncalled for but I believe that whenever someone makes a wrong call whether it’s the umpire or technology such as hawkeye and affects the outcome of the game they do need to be fined if they make the wrong call.

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TeaLeaf

6325 posts

Uber Geek

#2851057 15-Jan-2022 01:06

Dochart: It wasn’t Supersport fault so who the they were directing the blame too was uncalled for but I believe that whenever someone makes a wrong call whether it’s the umpire or technology such as hawkeye and affects the outcome of the game they do need to be fined if they make the wrong call.

The hawkeye was one thing, but if it is proven to be correct what do they do then? No matter how bad a decision, you should never go around accusing a country of cheating though, thats just rank. Ashwin how many times he gets himself into trouble with what he says, oh man. It was silly to even start talking to the broadcaster onfield. NZ gets howlers often and doesnt blame the host country for them by speaking to the stump mic, that is just bizarre action.

Then the Captain Koli to go and start accusing the broadcasters of only showing one teams guilty actions in a series he or his team wasnt even involved in, was childish and silly and nonsensical and completely based on rage. Again speaking to a stump mic about something that had nothing to do with him or his team. Looked weird.

Howlers happen, doesnt give a team or its captain the right to behave like that surely. Take it off field and ask to be shown how the hawkeye projected it. What if hawkeye peeps now release a clear cut statement showing how accurate it actually was, that leaves Ashwin and Khli in a very bad position if they arent already in one.

Always best to ask the umpire to have the 3rd umpire and match referee to take a look into such matters and then move on with the game and once its finished, then go through the process. Thats how it should be done. It looks like terrible sportsmanship otherwise. Vaughn said the ICC have to come down hard, possibly suspend. I dont know about suspend but definitely agree about dealing with it a stern manner. They are meant to be the international body so need to flex a bit on such actions.

Dochart

804 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2851058 15-Jan-2022 01:11

TeaLeaf:
Dochart: It wasn’t Supersport fault so who the they were directing the blame too was uncalled for but I believe that whenever someone makes a wrong call whether it’s the umpire or technology such as hawkeye and affects the outcome of the game they do need to be fined if they make the wrong call.

The hawkeye was one thing, but if it is proven to be correct what do they do then? No matter how bad a decision, you should never go around accusing a country of cheating though, thats just rank. Ashwin how many times he gets himself into trouble with what he says, oh man. It was silly to even start talking to the broadcaster onfield. NZ gets howlers often and doesnt blame the host country for them by speaking to the stump mic, that is just bizarre action.

Then the Captain Koli to go and start accusing the broadcasters of only showing one teams guilty actions in a series he or his team wasnt even involved in, was childish and silly and nonsensical and completely based on rage. Again speaking to a stump mic about something that had nothing to do with him or his team. Looked weird.

Howlers happen, doesnt give a team or its captain the right to behave like that surely. Take it off field and ask to be shown how the hawkeye projected it. What if hawkeye peeps now release a clear cut statement showing how accurate it actually was, that leaves Ashwin and Khli in a very bad position if they arent already in one.

Always best to ask the umpire to have the 3rd umpire and match referee to take a look into such matters and then move on with the game and once its finished, then go through the process. Thats how it should be done. It looks like terrible sportsmanship otherwise. Vaughn said the ICC have to come down hard, possibly suspend. I dont know about suspend but definitely agree about dealing with it a stern manner. They are meant to be the international body so need to flex a bit on such actions.

Ok didn’t know about that part. If Kohli and some of the players accused South Africa of cheating then yea that’s wrong and you can’t make accusations like that. I thought the accusation was in terms of hawkeye showing that it would be missing stumps but video footage look like it was plumb LBW. I didn’t realise Kohli and some of this teammates were accusing SA of cheating.

TeaLeaf

6325 posts

Uber Geek

#2851133 15-Jan-2022 13:41

Dochart: Ok didn’t know about that part. If Kohli and some of the players accused South Africa of cheating then yea that’s wrong and you can’t make accusations like that. I thought the accusation was in terms of hawkeye showing that it would be missing stumps but video footage look like it was plumb LBW. I didn’t realise Kohli and some of this teammates were accusing SA of cheating.

Well the 2nd one, directly the accusation was SupSports only showing other teams ball tampering and not SA etc, read into that what you will but its pretty hard to take it any other way if you listen to it.

The Hawkeye one it landed about 1 foot in front and hit him just under knee roll, he was about 6 feet out from the stumps when it hits him so a long way to keep rising on what was a very bouncy pitch (which saved one of the other players in a drs). Front on it was straight but bowler wasnt taking into account just how far forward Elgar got (he wouldnt have seen that part). I have to admit for me it looked out before I saw how far forward he was, it was weird, front on it didnt look like he got such a big stride. So i can sympathise with Ind and fans over why it looked out. But the trajetory shown side on post match doesnt look wrong.

Regardless of whether it did seem plum and is shown to be not out by hawkeye due to bounce and distance to travel and you dont believe it, complain to the match referee. Dont go throwing around multiple conspiracy accusations on field deliberately walking up to the stump mics to do so.

Hey Doc, you have sky sports, do you know if they show the NZ tests? Its pretty expensive $40 a month, but they show a good range of sports but dont have as much EPL, as spark have the right for NZ, but can live with that. Somebody else on here mentioned Kayo which I use to have from being in Aus. Sparksport is very limited for the price compared to Kayo at $25 a month, I just cant remember if Kayo shows the NZ cricket matches live.

I can watch most of the super smash on TVNZ which thank goodness we have some cricket left on free to air. I remember before Sky tv watching all the NZ greats FREE, which is what cricket needs to grow, or at least an extended highlights of each day or match on FTA.

Dochart

804 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2851137 15-Jan-2022 13:50

I think Sky NZ only have international cricket series except for when England and Bangladesh play at home. If you want to watch NZ cricket played at home you have to watch it through Spark Sport.

TeaLeaf

6325 posts

Uber Geek

#2851138 15-Jan-2022 13:56

Dochart: I think Sky NZ only have international cricket series except for when England and Bangladesh play at home. If you want to watch NZ cricket played at home you have to watch it through Spark Sport.

Ugggh stink. I guess why was such a big stink at the time it all swapped over. Spark imo havnt done anything to increase the amount of sport since starting. I guess it is cheap, just something feels missing. I not sure if they play the Warriors games either which was the main reason I kept Kayo,

TeaLeaf

6325 posts

Uber Geek

#2851161 15-Jan-2022 15:45

D Phillips bowled by his older brother G Phillips rofl.

Auck spinners, Ashok, Sommerville and Phillips doing some damage.

Edit: And another spinners delight from Glenn Phillips. IMO he is the middle order answer for Nicholls, gives you spin and reasonably good spin. Id go him over Rachin. More positive batsman, scores quicker. Avg is about the same, but should avg above 40 in tests. Currently has had 1 test and scored a 50 on debut, deserves another go and a number of them. But watch NZ force this Rachin opener situation on NZ cricket, he is not Kane Williamson and I think his u19 talent was a little bit over hyped to be the next Kane.

TeaLeaf

6325 posts

Uber Geek

#2851165 15-Jan-2022 16:15

You would think getting Smith and Warner both out for 0, first time in history, and Aus 12-3 and 84-4, Aus were in for a fail. But Head and Green, exactly the types of batsmen NZ need in the middle, clutching the test from the jaws of defeat with what looked like a looming sub 150 first innings. Eng gifted Marnus 49 runs, dropping him in the slips similar to the one where Mitchell dived across Tom Latham, no need to when 1 and 2 and in this case 3 and 4 are not spread.

I do think the selectors are resting on Nicholls being carried by a solid middle with Watling and a good top 4 to partner with. If we could just find somebody consistent at 5, I do think Mitchell is the right man for 6, at this point, possibly Phillips should get a go on a turning pitch but they will push Rachin in again, and then at 7 we need a consistent book end and for me that is Fletcher due to age but based on FC avg and form Cleaver should also be considered, I mean cleaver averages 42, nearly 10 more than Blundell. So you have #5 and 6 to try other batsmen out in. If GP has been selected prior then he deserves 10 tests to see if he is the answer at 6 or possibly 5. They cannot resolve the issue focussing on 6 and WK 7 only though. If Nicholls fails in this 3 test series, it will spell the end for him imo.

Edit: Anuru Kitchen is one of my fav t20 players. Bowls spin but hes SNEAKY. Seen him strangle Finn Allen with a bouncer, now hes bowled George Worker, then Chapman gold duck and then Begen gold duck, just bowling them all through the gate, 3 in the over and now on a hat trick. Plus he can seriously bat. Surely Kitchen is in contention for BCs t20 squad? Meanwhile Glenn Phillips down the other end just going, WT heck....

TeaLeaf

6325 posts

Uber Geek

#2851172 15-Jan-2022 16:42

OMG now Glenn Phillips, hasnt faced a ball in 2 overs and now hes out for a golden duck chopping on from a ball too high at about 6th stump to be trying to cut, better to flat bat it. Anyway, there goes Auck chasing a tiny total. Bizarre game. Bizarre. Thats 4 down. Only needed 6.1rpo.

Edit: OMG now a 5th. Ben Horne plum (watching Ashwin, thats what plum looks like).

Robby O the skipper for Auck now has to use the bottom order/tail to steer Auck to a victory. Still only need 6.5rpo. Just play sensible.

That was the most bizarre cricket 3 overs Ive seen in ages.

16-5 haha. Auck prob thought, this will be a doddle, even without Guppy, and after losing Finn Allen and Munro, they got Worker, so no exscuses, just not watching the ball close enough. Max Chu talking it up to 'Ru Kitchen, "the Golden Arm"

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