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Dochart
804 posts

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  #2851689 16-Jan-2022 20:18
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If playing in NZ probably don’t need that 5th bowler and since Phillips can bowl spin can use him as a 5th bowler. So if we don’t believe Mitchell is up for Test Cricket then you could probably do 5. Philips, 6. Cleaver 7. Fletcher (wk).




JD




TeaLeaf

6325 posts

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  #2851690 16-Jan-2022 20:22
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Dochart: If playing in NZ probably don’t need that 5th bowler and since Phillips can bowl spin can use him as a 5th bowler. So if we don’t believe Mitchell is up for Test Cricket then you could probably do 5. Philips, 6. Cleaver 7. Fletcher (wk).


That is my pick.

Lights on, ping ball, and the clouds have rolled in. This ball for Aus should move 3 feet in the air haha. Good luck Eng. I hate day night tests.


TeaLeaf

6325 posts

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  #2851783 16-Jan-2022 21:46
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What a shame there Burns, he looked his best all tour, just couldnt let it go in time. Aus were looking in SERIOUS trouble, WINVIZ had England ahead for the win.

 

203 needed to win with 9 wickets.

 

Stick our Kiwi B. Stokes in and smash 70 off the score and its pretty much theirs, day 4 in hobart is on avg when the most runs are scored as the grass is dying off.

The aussies had 11mm grass on the MCG test, I didnt know that. If only Bay Oval curator could have produced half that and more than 1 day of grass. I think that may put reservations in NZC to play more tests at Bay Oval. It was bouncier but absurd one day of grass and then 4th/5th day that extra bounce dies off. Essentially giving whoever wins the toss the best bowling by far both ends of the test. Put 11mm of grass on it and it would have been interesting. Will see what happens there in the future. We know all 3 SA tests and Hagley and Basin will have a thick carpet of grass. Maybe not 11mm though lol.

 

Edit: Oh dear, another chop on, Malan looking useless to the waste high 6th stump ball, yet looked fantastic driving. Eng making this run chase harder than it should be. Green isnt bowling anything unplayable, just let the ball go, no need to play it. I hope they dont lose from this position given the good start they had.

Edit: Oh man, Crawley looked really good, just didnt time the drive and got a low edge off Green. Ball was there to be hit. I dunno, Green looks to be getting his wickets due to batsman error only.

That could be it for Eng, Stokes and Root, if these guys dont put on 150, its prob all over.




Jas777
838 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2853214 19-Jan-2022 10:13
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TeaLeaf:

 

For me the most immediate important change is the WK as we need a book end like Watling, if they want a real decent replacement for runs id go Cleaver, who could give you 45 type avg at 6 and have Mitchell at 7 for a few more tests, Im not convinced on mitchell yet, have a look at his runs, his avg aside from the NO ton is no better than CDGH, who I wasnt a fan of either. Mitchell needs to produce 300 runs in the SA tests. If you go Phillips you dont need another pace bowler, NZ do not need a 5th bowler 9/10 times. Not with how many over Wags can do in a day. So has to be our best 6 batsmen and our best keeper batsman. So it is probably 6. Cleaver 7. Mitchell, the question is, if Nicholls isnt in our top 6 batsmen, who is aside from Cleaver?

Either way. NZ need to stack the batting, go with the extra batsman nearly always, not all rounders, genuine batsmen. But outside Phillips Im not sure who else has County cricket level play. 

 

 

County cricket level play is irrelevant as it is at a very low ebb at the moment. By the way Glenn Phillips last 3 scores in games played this year are 0, 0 and 0.

 

Why do you say Cleaver will average 45? That is better than all but 2 of NZ batters ever!


TeaLeaf

6325 posts

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  #2853468 19-Jan-2022 14:03
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Jas777:

 

County cricket level play is irrelevant as it is at a very low ebb at the moment. By the way Glenn Phillips last 3 scores in games played this year are 0, 0 and 0.

 

Why do you say Cleaver will average 45? That is better than all but 2 of NZ batters ever!

 

 

I still enjoy county cricket. You dont think it is high quality cricket?

 

Those GP games were t20 and 1 list A, Meh, means little for me.  Ive seen plenty of world class players do worse at international level. Such is the nature of hit out or get out. GP has the 3rd highest world total batting 4th in a t20 with 108 @ SR 211.  T20 really is a game of luck in so many ways, which is why it took me a long time to start enjoying it. It does have some tactics to it now as its matured as a format, I still prefer 50ov for a short game. I think 30ov a side would have been a better compromise.

So you do not rate GP? Who do you rate?

re Cleaver and test cricket, Im going on a lot of positive players once they reach test level, they average higher than FC cricket. I suspect thats partly due to having a team of more talented players than FC. Even Nicholls averages slightly more. Of course the opposite can happen and players do not live up to their potential. But then you get people like Marnus who have missed selectors eyes for whatever reason and average 10 more in test matches than FC. I see that happen often enough. Cleaver has been in great form across all formats; T20, List A and FC for a few seasons, I think he would take to Test cricket very well. His FC avg is as wicket keeper as well which given the nature of the position they usually have lower batting averages. 

Speaking of which, Cleaver and Fletcher have been dominant in both FC and domestic t20 the last few years, they both appear. Blundell when he does play domstic, doesnt appear in the top 10.

Im pretty confident by the end of the SA Test Series, Blundell's avg will drop to low to mid 20s and he will have scored next to not much and if he does score it wont be the sort of innings we need from our middle, which is to pile on the extra 200 consistently after the top 4 (whether the fail or get 300). by forming partnerships and or stopping the rot. 


Jas777
838 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2853566 19-Jan-2022 15:48
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TeaLeaf:

 

I still enjoy county cricket. You dont think it is high quality cricket?

 


So you do not rate GP? Who do you rate?

re Cleaver and test cricket, Im going on a lot of positive players once they reach test level, they average higher than FC cricket. I suspect thats partly due to having a team of more talented players than FC. Even Nicholls averages slightly more. Of course the opposite can happen and players do not live up to their potential. But then you get people like Marnus who have missed selectors eyes for whatever reason and average 10 more in test matches than FC. I see that happen often enough. Cleaver has been in great form across all formats; T20, List A and FC for a few seasons, I think he would take to Test cricket very well. His FC avg is as wicket keeper as well which given the nature of the position they usually have lower batting averages. 

Speaking of which, Cleaver and Fletcher have been dominant in both FC and domestic t20 the last few years, they both appear. Blundell when he does play domstic, doesnt appear in the top 10.

Im pretty confident by the end of the SA Test Series, Blundell's avg will drop to low to mid 20s and he will have scored next to not much and if he does score it wont be the sort of innings we need from our middle, which is to pile on the extra 200 consistently after the top 4 (whether the fail or get 300). by forming partnerships and or stopping the rot. 

 

 

County cricket is ok, I am just saying playing county cricket isn't the indicator if someone is good or not as it once was. Far too many teams for the talent levels and the best overseas players don't play full seasons anymore.

 

Glenn Phillips is ok, but him and Cleaver over a long period of time will be just the same as the others and get found out by the quality international bowlers much like the current players do. Any holes in their techniques will be found out.

 

I just think you are over rating players. What NZ cricket will have is a group of 5 to 6 players in the 5 to 7 positions who will all average around the same and have good and bad form periods and just rely on a 1 in 4 or 1 in 3 success rate for quality innings. 

 

 


TeaLeaf

6325 posts

Uber Geek


  #2853630 19-Jan-2022 16:31
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Jas777:

 

County cricket is ok, I am just saying playing county cricket isn't the indicator if someone is good or not as it once was. Far too many teams for the talent levels and the best overseas players don't play full seasons anymore.

 

Glenn Phillips is ok, but him and Cleaver over a long period of time will be just the same as the others and get found out by the quality international bowlers much like the current players do. Any holes in their techniques will be found out.

 

I just think you are over rating players. What NZ cricket will have is a group of 5 to 6 players in the 5 to 7 positions who will all average around the same and have good and bad form periods and just rely on a 1 in 4 or 1 in 3 success rate for quality innings. 

 

 

County cricket isnt what it once was, nor are the Young Cricketer scholarships at Lords. But I still think outside of NZ it is the best place to keep improving your red ball skills. Very hard if you are a spinner with the Duke ball on grassy pitches for GP, but to play well at home its probably not a bad thing. I just wish there was a list of kiwis currently playing county as well. 

My thoughts arent around GP, although I do think he has the intent to be a good #6 for NZ. What I want to see is NZ cricket be a little more proactive in fixing this glaringly obvious problem with our middle with Taylor and Watling gone and Nicholls being suspect as he always has.

I get what you mean about them all being fairly similar, but imo we need to rotate #5 because I do think we can find a player who will perform consistently well above his FC potential. Whether thas GP or Cleaver its a little unimportant. We know Nicholls is absolute rubbish away from home. We know he only puts on runs when there is no pressure to do so (ok he might get runs 1/20 times when we desperately need him to perform). What I want to see is these other batsmen who are performing at the next level under, sure its not like for like, but if they are scoring large averages over 10 innings etc, give them a go, lets see if they can prove the theory wrong that they are all there or there abouts. Because we have seen that theory proven wrong in the past. Marnus for Aus is the most exreme case. Anyway, just give the next cab off the rank  a 10-16 innings go at it. Then with #6, I personally feel we do not need a 5th bowler so play the extra batsman. It has been Mitchell, but GP deserves another shot there as well. I think positive batsmen will improve on their first class stats. I do not like how Nicholls has very little intent and as much as people say, play your shots because one will eventually have your name on it, he still waves that bat out at 6th stump area. Either play a shot or let it go. I think we have a number of players that could do better at both. I do not see the harm in giving them a go when Nicholls is not really performing anyway. last years century with all those dropped catches to sav his career was absurdity. No context. What we need is somebody who can form strong partnerships, which when it comes down to it, is how teams score 500+ consistently. 

Then there is Blundell, imo Fletcher should be a shoe in. Hes scoring runs in every format of the game along with cleaver. Both are significantly better batsmen than Blundell. Im tired of Blunell playing WK like an opener. The only time hes looked good at his role was the last innings where he played ~sr100 for 51no.

What all of this comes down to, who can find the easy run, so their partner can rinse and repeat, once the eyes are in they can start looking more expansive. So having intent to score immediately, intent to score over intent to defend.

I appreciate your opinion, I do understand what you base it on, but Ive seen enough to believe we have better players capable of either stopping a top order collapse or are capable of finishing an innings off with 200 runs partnerships from 5-8 and a dash from the tail. A more similar middle to the one we have just lost. There is no harm in trying and its fairly obvious if we don we will no longer be consistently scoring 400-550 first innings scores. So there is no harm giving these first class players who have proven their worth, a go a test level. IMO it would b Shame on NZC, Larsen, Stead etc if we just stood by with the attitude none of the other players will make a positive go of their rolle in a batting lineup, which FC can only show who has some actual talent. 

So looks like our whiteball cricketers wont be needed for a while to come

"Blackcaps' tour to Australia officially postponed (newshub):


 
 
 

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Jas777
838 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2853917 20-Jan-2022 09:26
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TeaLeaf:

 


Then there is Blundell, imo Fletcher should be a shoe in. Hes scoring runs in every format of the game along with cleaver. Both are significantly better batsmen than Blundell. Im tired of Blunell playing WK like an opener. The only time hes looked good at his role was the last innings where he played ~sr100 for 51no.


I appreciate your opinion, I do understand what you base it on, but Ive seen enough to believe we have better players capable of either stopping a top order collapse or are capable of finishing an innings off with 200 runs partnerships from 5-8 and a dash from the tail. A more similar middle to the one we have just lost. There is no harm in trying and its fairly obvious if we don we will no longer be consistently scoring 400-550 first innings scores. So there is no harm giving these first class players who have proven their worth, a go a test level. IMO it would b Shame on NZC, Larsen, Stead etc if we just stood by with the attitude none of the other players will make a positive go of their rolle in a batting lineup, which FC can only show who has some actual talent. 

So looks like our whiteball cricketers wont be needed for a while to come

"Blackcaps' tour to Australia officially postponed (newshub):

 

 

Based on your opinion of Blundell you wouldn't want Watling in the team either as he batted pretty much in the way you dislike.

 

I base my opinions on going to FC in cricket and seeing the players you talk about bat. They are not better than the current ones and if the current ones went back to FC cricket they would put up similar or better numbers. 

 

Like I said you could give the others 3 seasons and what would happen is the same as what currently happens, a really good 1st season, being found out in 2nd season and a 1 in 4 3rd season. You might get 1 exception to the rule but that will be 1 in 20.


TeaLeaf

6325 posts

Uber Geek


  #2854304 20-Jan-2022 17:07
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Jas777:

 

Based on your opinion of Blundell you wouldn't want Watling in the team either as he batted pretty much in the way you dislike.

 

I base my opinions on going to FC in cricket and seeing the players you talk about bat. They are not better than the current ones and if the current ones went back to FC cricket they would put up similar or better numbers. 

 

Like I said you could give the others 3 seasons and what would happen is the same as what currently happens, a really good 1st season, being found out in 2nd season and a 1 in 4 3rd season. You might get 1 exception to the rule but that will be 1 in 20.

 

 

No the difference with Watling is he could go on with it, Id have no issue if Blundell stopped the rot by blocking 30 balls in a row which he likes to do, if he then turned that into having his eye in and scoring a century or averaging ~40. I think at 7 he will average 20 at best. He is not NZ's best batting wicket keeper.

I watch FC too and whilst I agree many appear there or there abouts, I also believe there are others who change gears and step up at test level well beyond what they show in domestic FC. I think that step up is a soley mental one, a positive mind set to be perform consistently, which is what you need from that #5 and probably Nicholls worst attribute. I also do not believe in sticking with a player simply for the sake of nobody else is technically better or AVG's similar in FC. There has to be positions in our test team for FC "form" players. 

Looks like Wellington will make 3rd in the T20 SS, Auck posting a small total.

Auckland really missing Guptil, but both the O'Donnell brothers can bat, Worker is there, Chapman averages near 40 a $150, same with Phillips, but they just dont look the same without Guptill. Would be nice to have Guptill, Munro and Finn Allen back to Auck now haha (although that would mean dropping some good batsmen). What has happened to Jamieson, is he injured?

Conway out very early, but a very small total from Auck, I expect Allen and Bracewell "should" make short work of it. Although EPark outer oval is always a very hard pitch and its a 4 day pitch in essence now due to the Womans World Cup. 


Dochart
804 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2854305 20-Jan-2022 17:09
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I think they are resting Jamieson for the SA tests.




JD


TeaLeaf

6325 posts

Uber Geek


  #2854312 20-Jan-2022 17:35
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Dochart: I think they are resting Jamieson for the SA tests.


That was my only assumption, but its a big rest.

Hard to believe Somerville avgs nearly 37 @ SR150 with the bat T20 domestic haha, he has to be scoring a lot of not outs, I think his highest score is around 60.

 

Auck made that look hard, even without Guppy they have plenty of fast scoring players. Phillips had to conserve and was the only batsman who looked likely, Welli did take some amazing catches though that probably won the game. 

Welli smoked it even with neither Allen or Conway firing.


Dochart
804 posts

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  #2854315 20-Jan-2022 17:40
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Blundell was going real slow at the start of his innings was chewing a lot of dot balls and in the final over got 17 runs to end on 41 runs (25 balls). Nice to see Blundell continuing on his form from test cricket and also Bracewell form has been good as well.





JD


TeaLeaf

6325 posts

Uber Geek


  #2854318 20-Jan-2022 17:48
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Dochart: Blundell was going real slow at the start of his innings was chewing a lot of dot balls and in the final over got 17 runs to end on 41 runs (25 balls). Nice to see Blundell continuing on his form from test cricket and also Bracewell form has been good as well.



I hope he takes the feeling of runs into his test form, he looks so much better when he just plays low risk high reward shots, rather then nerdling at 5th/6th stump balls. I think Test WK spot is one that we can do better undeniably. Especially Cleaver, but I like Fletcher too. Both are the in form FC batsmen, Id play both and drop the 5th bowler, with Wagner making up the part time bowler overs. But NZ will give Mitchell a fair crack Im sure. 

Is there anywhere to access u19 stats? Id like to compare Rachin to others, I know he was talented but he didnt stand out like a Taylor or a Williamson to me. Im just wondering if they are serious about him, they gave Kane a long time to show more than a debut century. Only way I can see him fitting is throwing him in the deep end at opening and moving Young back to middle order at 5 and drop Nicholls to 6. 

So many options, I think we do have the players to fix the middle order slumps, we have better #6 candidates than ever and we have two wicket keepers who are performing across all 3 formats. I think Blundell sooner or later has to be batting for his spot in the team. Cant keep averaging 15 at #7. 

I also think KJ needs to find some form with the bat, he was never going to avg 35, I just want to see him play his shots, if he has a top order batsman then also be able to rotate the strike until he becomes the senior batsman. We could have a very long batting line up if he can deliver some consistency. 

Bracewell has has a few really good innings in a row now. 

There is no reason with the talent in the Welli team now they shouldnt win the SS.

Ben Sears, he is serious heat now hes fully developed. I so hope he doesnt get a major back injury, but he appears not to round the back out too much which is good. 



Dochart
804 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2854377 20-Jan-2022 20:26
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Tealeaf

U19 Stats on Ravindra. I think he was batting lower in U19 WC as an allrounder. The only stats that are good are his first class batting of around 36 and his T20 bowling average of around 24.

I think he will do well in the future but I think it’s too early for him. He’s been put in the deep end too early. The team cannot decide where he should bat. Me personally I think he should be opening and be a part-time spinner/batting allrounder. If we can somehow can extend the order I would Will Young to 5 then have Mitchell and Blundell at 6 and 7 respectively.

https://archive.nzc.nz/Players/1596/1596049/1596049.html

https://archive.nzc.nz/Players/

Link above you can search for any player.




JD


TeaLeaf

6325 posts

Uber Geek


  #2854511 21-Jan-2022 10:17
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Dochart: Tealeaf

U19 Stats on Ravindra. I think he was batting lower in U19 WC as an allrounder. The only stats that are good are his first class batting of around 36 and his T20 bowling average of around 24.

 

The reason I ask, I can remember him in age group and he was good, but not somebody who stood out like Kane or Ross (who got the joy of MCC young cricketers to manage the covers at Lords lol).

So Im trying to reconcile why we put so much faith and pressure on him to tour Ind. Especially when you have a more experienced young spinner in Glenn Phillips who also has a very positive method (similar to Ross Taylor). NZ has Sodhi, the guy has FC batting avg of 21 and bowling avg on NZ green wickets of 34, very similar to Ajaz but can bat. And then you have Astle who is just slightly better stats wise yet again. NZ needed a deep batting line, Ajaz, Wagner, Southee, KJ, Astle/Sodhi, Blundell, GP..... that would have been a much better batting depth and 3 spin bowlers with international experience and better FC averages than "Dad" (GP spin not as good as Astle but a middle order batsman). Anyway, the point is I dont think Ravindra should be in our equations until he has matured and produced at FC level and take a look at him in a few years time.

I dont think SA are going to be the weakened new team that many were expecting. They did struggle a bit with a number of new faces but they seem to have got Ind's number. Looking forward to this 2nd SA vs Ind ODI. The first one was a very intriguing battle, until India lost a big grouping of wickets around the half way stage which saw them fall ~30 short of the 296. Wow SA had 2 batsmen score more than 2/3 of the runs, Bavuma 110 and Rassie van der Dussen 129NO off 96 balls. The Rassie innings was Lara esque, just dominant and in control. I hope to see some more of that. Hopefully NZ's bowling variety has SA's measure.


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