Formula 1 2025 Season Discussion

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#3328612 7-Jan-2025 11:56

Ragnor:

Interesting and fairly sensible changes in the order of races, Asia Pacific consolidated up front, races in the Middle East grouped together, European races largely grouped together... Miami and Montreal positions still don't make a lot of sense.

still seems to be doing a lot of pointless travel.

Saudi, US, Italy, only to be back in the US 2 more times later on, and canada and mexico.

They could have sat in America (north + south + canada) before the july break and then gone to europe (or vice versa) if they really wanted to pretend to save emissions on travel.

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Jaxson

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#3328630 7-Jan-2025 13:05

I've always been a fan of racing rather than fuel saving, and the removal of refueling has made this aspect even worse/removed another strategy component. One year we had that to extremes, race for first 5 laps then fuel save the rest of the race and then blast it out in the last 10 laps. To offset this though there needs to be fuel savings elsewhere and the amount of travel, vehicles used and optimising routes etc is the place to do that.

Stuff article re the team targets for Liam
Clearly a focus on regaining the constructors championship, which of course needs two competitive points scoring drivers.
Big ask but hope this is managed well. The lack of PR work has already been highlighted by his finger to Mexico/spanish speakers etc.

I'd argue the sacrificial second driver allowed Max to win last years drivers championship. No rear gunner for Max, but a total test car for when to switch to new tyres in the wet, different compounds etc and no chance at all of stealing win points from Max. As others have said though Red Bull were dominant at the start of 2024 right off the bat, and I'm not expecting that situation at all this year. Could be another great season!

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GV27

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#3328634 7-Jan-2025 13:35

Refueling was great, you mostly end up with everyone on the same strategy but every now and then someone would do something nuts like three stops instead of two, or 20 qualifying laps in a row to build a gap.

PolicyGuy

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#3328775 7-Jan-2025 16:44

GV27:

Refueling was great, you mostly end up with everyone on the same strategy but every now and then someone would do something nuts like three stops instead of two, or 20 qualifying laps in a row to build a gap.

Refueling gave more opportunity for cheating, too.
One team at least had a significantly underweight car one season, so they always had a 'splash & dash' refueling stop near the end, where they poured in a little fuel and about 20kg lead shot. And voila, when the car is weighed after the race, it's just a teeny bit over the minimum weight allowed.

Refueling was also dangerous.
Firstly there were several refueling fires in pit lane with all the obvious dangers to drivers, pit crew and spectators.
Secondly at least during the turbo era, the fuels themselves were pretty toxic. When tested according to the specified protocols, they came out at just about exactly 100 Research Octane Number, but according to an F1 mechanic from the era "they poured more like thin treacle than real petrol, and the fumes would make your eyes water 100m downwind"

Refueling in F1?
Yeah ... nah

vexxxboy

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#3328990 8-Jan-2025 08:55

this is a really interesting article on the drivability of the Red Bull F1 car

https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/why-max-verstappen-destroys-his-f1-team-mates-mark-hughes/

Common sense is not as common as you think.

GV27

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#3328996 8-Jan-2025 09:18

PolicyGuy:

GV27:

Refueling was great, you mostly end up with everyone on the same strategy but every now and then someone would do something nuts like three stops instead of two, or 20 qualifying laps in a row to build a gap.

Refueling gave more opportunity for cheating, too.
One team at least had a significantly underweight car one season, so they always had a 'splash & dash' refueling stop near the end, where they poured in a little fuel and about 20kg lead shot. And voila, when the car is weighed after the race, it's just a teeny bit over the minimum weight allowed.

Refueling was also dangerous.
Firstly there were several refueling fires in pit lane with all the obvious dangers to drivers, pit crew and spectators.
Secondly at least during the turbo era, the fuels themselves were pretty toxic. When tested according to the specified protocols, they came out at just about exactly 100 Research Octane Number, but according to an F1 mechanic from the era "they poured more like thin treacle than real petrol, and the fumes would make your eyes water 100m downwind"

Refueling in F1?
Yeah ... nah

Cars used to effectively run hydrolastic suspension systems that could top themselves up after a race or blocks of ice in the suspension so that they met ride height rules when measured. If we're just going to eliminate everything in motor racing that could be a vector for cheating or dangerous you're left with... cycling? I've got some bad news about that too.

The world has moved on since F1 last had refueling and you could design a pretty comprehensive set of regs to deal with it. Endurance racing, Supercars, etc all manage it, the idea that F1 can't is bonkers. The more opportunity for variability in races, the better.

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#3328999 8-Jan-2025 09:40

2025 is going to be all over the place, which is good

McLaren may not improve much, same with Ferrari. RBR did improve late, will likely improve a little more. Mercedes has the most to gain, so should improve solidly

Drivers, well Charles and Lewis will fight each other, same with Lando and Oscar. might be a little Vettel/Webber and Hamilton/Rosberg going on there. Max and George will be team ordered for maximum points

TwoSeven

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#3329034 8-Jan-2025 11:06

For me, F1 was supposed to be a team sport, but nowadays they seem to just be throwing money at everything. By team, I mean not just the driver, but all of the people involved in running the car during race weekend for a team.

Things I would like to see - a reduction on the number of people involved in a pitstop, no data transmission to the car and race strategy/driver communication only allowable by those on the pit wall team (no back-office computing and remote strategy teams). I think the success of the driver on race weekend really should involve the successful operation of the team - but the [race] team, should only be limited to those in the pit garage during the race weekend.

To me, there is a balance between team skill and technology, but when the team skill is augmented by technology, then from a math perspective there can only be one optimum strategy which I think is why the races are so processional.

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Jvipers2

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#3329116 8-Jan-2025 15:58

tdgeek:
2025 is going to be all over the place, which is good

McLaren may not improve much, same with Ferrari. RBR did improve late, will likely improve a little more. Mercedes has the most to gain, so should improve solidly

Drivers, well Charles and Lewis will fight each other, same with Lando and Oscar. might be a little Vettel/Webber and Hamilton/Rosberg going on there. Max and George will be team ordered for maximum points

I'm sure Lewis will not be challenging Charles in 2025 as he has to build repo with the team, so it could be a Charles year
Mercedes with a rookie in the second seat will mean development will be slow
McLaren will have both drivers fighting each other
RB will have Liam trying to show his worth before being reeled back by the team as usual

I'm hoping Carlos can pull something amazing at Williams every now an then, otherwise something interesting from Yuki maybe to make RB regret not picking him or maybe something from Alpine or Haas... Aston Martin will be with Sauber underperforming I predict...

tdgeek

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#3329169 8-Jan-2025 16:23

Jvipers2:
tdgeek:

2025 is going to be all over the place, which is good

McLaren may not improve much, same with Ferrari. RBR did improve late, will likely improve a little more. Mercedes has the most to gain, so should improve solidly

Drivers, well Charles and Lewis will fight each other, same with Lando and Oscar. might be a little Vettel/Webber and Hamilton/Rosberg going on there. Max and George will be team ordered for maximum points

I'm sure Lewis will not be challenging Charles in 2025 as he has to build repo with the team, so it could be a Charles year
Mercedes with a rookie in the second seat will mean development will be slow
McLaren will have both drivers fighting each other
RB will have Liam trying to show his worth before being reeled back by the team as usual

I'm hoping Carlos can pull something amazing at Williams every now an then, otherwise something interesting from Yuki maybe to make RB regret not picking him or maybe something from Alpine or Haas... Aston Martin will be with Sauber underperforming I predict...

Cannot agree, sorry

Lewis as a No.2 driver, or taking it easy for Charles? Never happen

They made steady progress with just George, George is still there

Yes, McLaren will be fighting each other, that will be interesting as Lando is a tad quicker but less reliable

Liam has been told he is No.2, many times. He's been told he will support Max and garner points. He's not doing the poisoned chalice that others have fallen into

tdgeek

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#3329171 8-Jan-2025 16:25

This is a good read https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/360542211/six-current-f1-stars-won-new-zealand-first

Liam stacks up pretty well, amongst these guys as they all try to forge an F1 career

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mudguard

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#3329227 8-Jan-2025 17:02

TwoSeven:

Things I would like to see - a reduction on the number of people involved in a pitstop, no data transmission to the car and race strategy/driver communication only allowable by those on the pit wall team

To be fair they did a couple of years ago and it was awful. Drivers would bump a setting on the steering wheel and they weren't allowed to be told how to fix it so the were crawling round trying to Ctrl Alt Delete.

thermonuclear

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#3329291 8-Jan-2025 17:55

tdgeek:

This is a good read https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/360542211/six-current-f1-stars-won-new-zealand-first

Liam stacks up pretty well, amongst these guys as they all try to forge an F1 career

Agreed, all kicks off again this coming weekend in Taupo. The Red Bull wunderkind, Lindblad, is expected by some to be the class of the field in this year's championship. Will be very interesting to see how he performs, I'm not so sure he's as good as Marko and Horner think he is, so this will be a good measure in conditions we are more familiar with.

I'm surprised Louis Sharp isn't part of the field, couldn't secure a drive this year maybe? Apparently he's been back in New Zealand for Christmas and the F3 season doesn't begin until March.

Jaxson

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#3329471 9-Jan-2025 10:59

Kinda annoyed there's a major regulation change coming next year.
Will spice things up with new teams and car designs etc, but things are closing in now and there's a high chance the reg changes will see a return to one or two teams landing it right at the start and others taking a gamble that doesn't pay off.

There may even be some of that going on this year as teams try to extract more from their cars, but it's a total risk given the Mercedes example that failed miserably for several years. There will come a point too where those not fully in the title fight give up this year and swing all development across to 2026, leaving those near the front to try for a 2025 championship win.

From the F1 site:

From 2026 onwards Formula 1 will have:

More agile cars, which are 30kg lighter and thus better able to battle on track
A redesigned power unit featuring increased battery power and an even split between internal combustion engine and electric power plus the use of 100% sustainable fuels
Active aerodynamics in the form of moveable front and rear wings to allow for closer racing
Increased overtaking opportunities through the introduction of a new system that gives drivers a short burst of additional battery power when within one second of the car in front
Improved safety through stronger structures and even tougher tests
Commitment from a record number of six power unit manufacturers

They've agreed to ditch the MGU-H heat recovery component that was very complex, and leaving solely the kinetic energy recovery like many electric cars have. This should make things a bit simpler.

tdgeek

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#3329502 9-Jan-2025 13:02

Agree re reg changes. Taken a few years for some team to reach the peak, so the latter half of that last year and 2025 will be great, then as you say, its all wiped, which always leaves some teams better off than others so close racing will end for a few more years

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