How did NZ lose this test match?

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#1741635 17-Mar-2017 11:13

tdgeek:

We do have batting depth, yes, agree. But at this level?

Yeah I take your point. But I think with Raval, williamson, taylor and watling we have four batsmen who can stick around, if you chuck Munro in there who AVGs 50 at 1st class and maybe Guptil, at 5, then Neesham. I think we have a solid platform with two batsmen who can up the strike rate (Guptil/Munro and Neesham).

I think its just a case of shuffling the players around to what we need from them, clearly Guptil is not a blocker and doesnt suit the Test game and nor is Munro for that matter. So we need to find a quality opener and insert one of the quality fast scoring players. If Latham could just spend some time, only a year, back in 1st class, getting his confidence and technique back, i still think hes our best man for the that job.

I also think outside Wagner we have quite a healthy tail of players with fast eyes and hands, especially Southee and Boult, sure they are just sloggers, but a quick 20-30 each makes a big difference, certainly did yesterday haha. The only issue is if we do bring in our only real spinner in Sodhi, we do lose a bit of the tail with him and Wagner at the end. But hey, bowlers are meant to bowl trusting their batsmen will do the job of batting :-)

I think if Nicholls continues on with yesterday while Taylor is out, it might make it hard for Guptil or Munro to make the team once Taylor is back. In fact I could see Nicholls replacing Latham and still fitting in Guptil or Munro at 5.

If it wasnt for Nicholls we would have likely been out for under 100 yesterday, eek.

We definitely need players with intent like guptil and munro, too many blockers and we go nowhere. Thats what made Mccullums captaincy so good, he would put the foot on the throat when needed. I find Williamson plays an old school test mentality, he reminds me of stephen fleming. But Taylor will only be around a couple of seasons, so giving it to him now, makes no sense. Id go with whoever is the most aggresive players from a captaincy mentality and a regular in the team and try them out. We should not have lost that last test, despite Latham and others bad batting, and Latham dropping 140 runs, we should have still one, we just tried to defend too much at times we should have had players all around the bat.

TeaLeaf

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#1742645 17-Mar-2017 11:32

I like this squad better than the last, but still dont get why they are picking De Gron Holme over Ferguson.

Also dont understand why De Gron Holme is opening over our fastest wicket taker Wagner, when Wagner is our biggest swinger of the ball? Now De Gron Holme has gone for 20 off the last 2 overs.

Swap Southee so hes down end and get Wagner on quickly. If Amla gets in, he wont get out.

edit: Wagner on for 2 overs and insta WICKET ! Only Duminy though, need Amla. but still very close to their tail now. But Du Plesis and Amla together, if we dont crack that, they can both score double tons. And there Tail is real strong, they bat real deep.

Wagner now just knocked Ewen Chatfield off the top 10 for NZ wicket takers, lol good old Ewen Chatfield, so many boring memories there haha, no loved his accuracy.

If only we had selected Wagner earlier in his career, hed probably be up there with Hadlee by the end. But Hadlee stands out from the rest like a glowing light with an average of 22 vs 26/27 for Boult and Southee and 28 for Wagner.

TeaLeaf

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#1742668 17-Mar-2017 12:26

What a catch from Nicholls, I think that might cement his spot in the side this series for sure. Amla gone.

Now is when Kane needs to not defend the 200 runs, he needs to get the tail out. But he wont go for it, he will be to much sitting on the fence with his field placements.

Edit: Wow now Watling takes a freak of a catch, makes up for dropping that sitter in the last test. Du Plesis gone, now we into the tail.

De Gron Holme 3 wickets, but to be fair 2 of them are the batsmen mis hits, guess its not how its how many lol. His first one yesterday was a good ball though.

TeaLeaf

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#1742787 17-Mar-2017 14:55

De Ja Vu, NZ get the SA top order out with ease but struggle to get the tail, Williamson over uses plans that dont work and gives SA breathing space. Like K Vessels is commentating and saying right now.

Well what looked like a possible 100 lead, Id say we will be lucky not to be chasing 100.

Hopefully Latham sticks around with Raval as the pitch should be easy batting now and we can put on 400+ and get the under pressure.

TeaLeaf

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#1742845 17-Mar-2017 16:47

Nearly 200 runs for the 7th wicket, sigh, nice one williamson, SA 80-6 and now 255/7. thats why we need lockie ferguson. someone who can deliver something different. someone who can hurry the batsman up not needing spin or swing. he has the best first class average out of all new zealand bowlers yet hes not getting a consistant go at the ODI team let alone the Test Team where we need him.

On comes Nesham and 1st ball delivers a ripper, and thats why he is there and not Santner. Thank goodness, SA were heading for a 200 lead.

Edit: How did we lose the plot again. I still think we should be playing our most promising pace bowler while he is young. Playing De Gron Holme over Ferguson is short term thinking.

Well hopefully we dont have too much to chase and Latham finds some form and we see off the new ball this evening with only one wicket down.

SA have scored close to 4 an over versus our 2.8. Much more intent even when 80/6

TeaLeaf

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#1742883 17-Mar-2017 18:37

So SA will end they day around 350/9, how on earth does there tail score 270 runs. What looked like NZ having a minimum of 100 lead, turns out to be us chasing minimum of 70. SA were 70/6 sigh, we need better captaincy and the pace of Ferguson to change things up with 150kph yorkers. We cant rely on swing when either it doesnt or we have poor fielding plans from the captain.

Santner comes onto the field and lets a ball go between his feet for four, that wont do his chances any good.

I think unless NZ score 450+ this is SA's match.

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tdgeek

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#1742981 17-Mar-2017 20:33

TeaLeaf:

Nearly 200 runs for the 7th wicket, sigh, nice one williamson, SA 80-6 and now 255/7. thats why we need lockie ferguson. someone who can deliver something different. someone who can hurry the batsman up not needing spin or swing. he has the best first class average out of all new zealand bowlers yet hes not getting a consistant go at the ODI team let alone the Test Team where we need him.

On comes Nesham and 1st ball delivers a ripper, and thats why he is there and not Santner. Thank goodness, SA were heading for a 200 lead.

Edit: How did we lose the plot again. I still think we should be playing our most promising pace bowler while he is young. Playing De Gron Holme over Ferguson is short term thinking.

Well hopefully we dont have too much to chase and Latham finds some form and we see off the new ball this evening with only one wicket down.

SA have scored close to 4 an over versus our 2.8. Much more intent even when 80/6

I hear you. But you cant blame Williamson. He is not there to take every wicket, score every win, and tale every catch, its a team game. IMHO we always punch above our weight, and we are here too, but we lack depth. Williamson is a weapon as is Boult, but below that we are not strong. We are a tasty cake with not much cream. We have enough talent and guts to beat any team in ODI, but the longer firm exposes our lack of depth. I could say we have long batting lineup, but a lot of it is not an international lineup. Latham has shown that. Yes, I'd like Fergusson to play a lot more, that will cost us now and benefit us later. Latham is casting us dearly, we cannot afford to play with 10, not 11 players, and that is what he is giving us.

TeaLeaf

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#1743205 18-Mar-2017 11:20

tdgeek:

I hear you. But you cant blame Williamson. He is not there to take every wicket, score every win, and tale every catch, its a team game.

yeah i dont blame williamson personally or entirely but this score now highlights his ability as a captain and his selection influence, yes the bowlers should have done better with these 4 tail enders after bowling the 6 of the best batsmen in the world for 96, but bowling de gron holme ahead of wagner with the new ball for example, really protective field positions when we have the #1 team in the world at 96/6 and now the next 3 tail enders have put on 300 runs. so i do blame him partially from a captaincy perspective. i dont think he knows how to take the tail, we have seen it so often with aus and sa with williamson. we get their top order out with ease, but when it comes to unconventional batsmen, williamson has no answer.

i also blame williamson partially for the team line up, him and hesson are included in the selectors conversation. selecting those 2 average spinners last test and dropping our most in form test bowler, which in turn cost us our other top bowler boult, is partially whats cost us not just the draw in the last test but also not being able to get 4 tail enders out for 300 runs. i also think hes partially to blame for not selecting ferguson. we really need to invest in him now while he is young so we have a truely fast bowler who can knock over these tail enders with 152kph yorkers. Ferguson has the best 1st class Avg in NZ, better than any of the current NZ squad, hes early 20s, hes fast, he is fairly accurate, he just needs experience.

whilst de gron holme finally got some wickets this test, 2 of them were off pies which the batsmen holed out on. hes been very much nothing since his 6 fa on debut. i think he needs to replaced with the Fast bowler Ferguson.

so im not fully blaming williamson, but i feel his selection choices and his captaincy is pretty weak, but our only other option right now is Taylor and he will retire soon.

i think lathams t20 and odi form is making his test form look even worse, but in reality its not that bad beyond the last 2 tests.i agree though it feels at the moment like hes not even in the team.

96/6 I thought we might have a 100 lead, now we trail 90+, if we dont score 450+ and bat all of today, we have lost this test match.

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#1743214 18-Mar-2017 11:45

Ok Im not going to even semi defend Latham now.

Styris "And Latham wretched form continues".

I can see Lathams issue now, its his technique, hes reaching around his pad for straight balls which removes the full face off the blade, which is what the bowler saw, set him up then gave him one just outside the off stump and Latham just reaches for a ball he should be defending against, one he could have let go. Hes playing at balls he doesnt need to. He REALLY needs to go back to 1st class get someone working on his technique.

Smithy "Its not what you call classic opening technique".

-80/1

TeaLeaf

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#1743215 18-Mar-2017 11:45

Ok Im not going to even semi defend Latham now.

Styris "And Latham wretched form continues".

Smithy "Its not what you call classic opening technique".

Raval is hitting it well, hopefully he converts his usual 30-50 into a big one this time.

Smithy really getting stuck into Latham, saying no doubt he has the skill to succeed at opening, but his form is terrible due to his technique. Basically saying what has been said on here.

I think replace Latham, bring in Munro and Guptil when he is fit to replace broom (but shuffle him down the order), possibly put williamson in to open, hes opening anyway, or Nicholls or Watling.

Now Styris is saying Raval should be helping Latham. I cant see how, hes a right hander, and thats Craig Mcmillians job which hes clearly letting Latham down if hes not spelling out the obvious which is just technique. I think perhaps Latham needs a left handed coach.

And now Williamson fails as well. We are done for.

TeaLeaf

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#1743254 18-Mar-2017 13:11

Thank goodness we found Raval, amazing opening batsmanship technique. Im surprised he doesnt have a broken finger with 5 hitting the gloves.

He now needs to go on with it and take up the slack from Williamson failing again (hes had to rippers this match early on to be fair).

Broom doing much better. Who knows we might get passed their lead before we collapse lol.

Even a lead of 250 would be enough to give us something to bowl at and would force Williamson to be attacking in his field placements as there is no defending 250 with at least a days play.

I think if one of these 2 can hang around and Nicholls stays for a session or 2, then Neesham, then Watling do the same, we should be in a position to see out the day and have a lead of about 150, come out firing tomorrow morning and then declare at Lunch. Ok getting well ahead of our likelyhood here haha.

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TeaLeaf

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#1743353 18-Mar-2017 14:58

SA's bottom four are better than our top 6.

Our only hope here is if Watling scores 100 and Raval scores 150.

TeaLeaf

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#1743424 18-Mar-2017 16:44

Now thats just embarrasing from De Gron Holme, missed blocking the ball by a foot, clean bowled.

Time to weed out the rubbish and strengthen both our batting line and introduce ferguson and give him a good 10 tests in a row.

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#1743491 18-Mar-2017 18:35

The commentators finally talking about selection and having the 6 best batsman (including keeper) and the 5 best bowlers.

Anybody would think selection is rocket science.

They all agree Latham needs to be replaced, despite having a future in the team.

Richardsons idea is to drop Williamson to 4, replace Latham and put someone else in 3. I think thats a good idea. He suggested Munro and I agree with that.

They are suggesting 2 spinners again for Hamilton, thats an instant loss imo. I think it should be Fergusson, Wagner, Boult, Southee, and Ish Sodhi who just took a 7 wicket bag in 1st class,

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#1743494 18-Mar-2017 18:40

In my opinion, yesterday afternoon about 4pm it looked winable. We were about 20 runs ahead and they had 3 wickets in hand but its usually easy to get the bowlers out.

They had about 3 wickets left, and we took AGES to bowl them out.

So they were about 80 something runs ahead... So we were really on the back foot from this morning. Then we just lost all the good batsmen for low runs. The Main guy who shone today was Raval.

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