Formula 1 2025 Season Discussion

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#3379790 2-Jun-2025 12:18

Benoire:

tdgeek:

A bit to unpack here!

Before I pass my comments on the news of the day:

Liam was super stiff, he was the lead lapped car and everyone behind him pitted. Sitting duck

i felt when Antonelli's car failed, they should have left Max out. His softs were used but so were Oscar's and Lando's pitted softs, so he would have track position. Safety car could leave 6 or less laps, so worst case was third. Pitting meant he stayed third on hards, that guarantees third, possibly worse.

Max, Max, Max. While he didnt steer the car into George it was intentional, as Max stated in his own Max way. He lost 10 seconds, a LOT of points and is one point away from a race ban. While there is no excuse, and Ive seen other drivers do a lot worse, there are some mitigating circumstances that pushed him over the edge. I feel he realises that the possibility of the WDC was over before the race started. He also stated that in his interview. Charles hit him, which was admitted, George was at fault when he hit Max and pushed him off track. But the kicker was as Max stayed in front GP incorrectly told him to give the place back, that was wrong. That pushed him over the edge. George met the rules to be alongside on the inside, George stayed in track limits, but he didnt have control of the car, so his fault. Some commentator said George deserved a 10 second penalty, I dont agree, racing incident, he didnt gain an advantage, so let it be. GP caused that, but again, no excuses for Max.

Oscar, too fast, too cool, and too unflappable. Lando just as fast but not so cool

There are no mitigating circumstances that can push someone to intentionally crashing in to another competitor, absolutely none. It wasn't dangerous in my opinion but it was beyond stupid, doesn't matter how agreived a driver may be for a previous issue these are some, if not, the best open seat drivers in the world and that petulence Max showed has no place in modern motor racing.

Apart from that, I enjoyed the race and the Mclaren looks good and Oscar looks imperious. Leclerk is dragging that Ferarri to places it shouldn't. Was disappointed in Williams both as Albon had a mare and they where just no where.

Fair enough, but its not the first time and it wont be the last. Lewis/Rosberg, Vettel/Webber, they were dangerous. Careless, and bordering on intentional given the circumstances and outcomes were more than obvious. But they just ended up as fans posting for both drivers.

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#3379799 2-Jun-2025 13:20

Max has since stated it was a misjudgement. I initially thought he understeered on the poor hards. Toto has suggested he was trying the tactic once you have to give a position back that he was trying to line up to get a quick repass back, sounds reasonable. He didnt turn into George, he accelerated and caused the collision. Why did the Stewards give him a 10 second penalty if it was supposedly intentional? If he was trying to minimise the points loss to Oscar, it does make some sense. I guess we will never know, and leave the facts to the commentators that it was intentional, the Stewards dont have that opinion.

Given the context of it just being a collision he caused, that happens a lot in F1. Max isnt well liked by many, reminds me when Lewis was involved in incidents, including with Rosberg, that it was always the other guys fault, Lewis being, and still is, a fan favourite. Im now seeing it as a storm in a teacup. In any case Max is now not in contention from my viewpoint. Its fully done and dusted.

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#3379848 2-Jun-2025 14:20

tdgeek:

Toto has suggested he was trying the tactic once you have to give a position back that he was trying to line up to get a quick repass back, sounds reasonable. He didnt turn into George, he accelerated and caused the collision. Why did the Stewards give him a 10 second penalty if it was supposedly intentional?

Given the context of it just being a collision he caused, that happens a lot in F1. Max isnt well liked by many, reminds me when Lewis was involved in incidents, including with Rosberg, that it was always the other guys fault,

Just on this, thought Wolff's comments after the race were very interesting, very gracious considering. Almost as though he still thinks Mercedes is in with a chance of signing the Dutchman and doesn't want to give a view which might offend, appeasement as it were.

On the incident itself, although I haven't seen Verstappen's onboard to see if he was actually turning the wheel and a victim of understeer, from the outside it looked deliberate and extremely cynical. Absolutely deserved a much harsher penalty, a race disqualification in my view. The stewards continuing to tolerate this behaviour from Verstappen without proper sanction is only going to see it continue. I hope we don't arrive at a point in the future where his stupidity and red mist has lethal consequences for himself or another driver.

Also thought his hiding behind fear of supposed FIA sanctions if he "spoke his mind" about the incident post-race was pretty feeble. He made a mistake, he knows he made a mistake, he should have manned up and owned his mistake instead of the cowardly path he took. It's disappointing that a driver with so much natural ability is also cursed with the affliction of being unable to do any wrong in his own mind.

On Lawson, had the above incident been properly dealt with, the Kiwi would have come away with a point for his efforts. He was shafted by the Safety Car rolling out of pit lane just in front of him, as well as the Mercedes blowing up and allowing Alonso to get some fresh rubber and take the point off him. But that's racing. It felt like he had a big hand in Hulkenberg's dramatic rise from obscurity on Lap 1 by the choice he made into Turn 1. Again, that's racing. Lawson made some slick passes on Albon but looked desperate in his attempts on Bearman when it was clear from 200 metres out that the moves just weren't on. He needs to sharpen up his decision-making, play the longer game in situations like the Bearman overtake, and he will instantly look a much better driver. He does have good race pace generally as a driver.

Also continue to be impressed by Marko coming down the grid to wish Lawson good luck just before the start at each race. It seems like he continues to enjoy the support of the Doctor, despite how the season has unfolded so far. Hopefully that plays in Lawson's favour when Red Bull decide who has to make way to accommodate Lindblad. Speaking of which, the Brit took the Feature Race in F2 and is now into P3 in the championship. The closer he gets to winning that title, the more likely it is that he stays until the end of the season and Lawson's seat is safe at Racing Bulls for 2025 I think.

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#3379972 2-Jun-2025 17:13

thermonuclear:

tdgeek:

Toto has suggested he was trying the tactic once you have to give a position back that he was trying to line up to get a quick repass back, sounds reasonable. He didnt turn into George, he accelerated and caused the collision. Why did the Stewards give him a 10 second penalty if it was supposedly intentional?

Given the context of it just being a collision he caused, that happens a lot in F1. Max isnt well liked by many, reminds me when Lewis was involved in incidents, including with Rosberg, that it was always the other guys fault,

Just on this, thought Wolff's comments after the race were very interesting, very gracious considering. Almost as though he still thinks Mercedes is in with a chance of signing the Dutchman and doesn't want to give a view which might offend, appeasement as it were.

On the incident itself, although I haven't seen Verstappen's onboard to see if he was actually turning the wheel and a victim of understeer, from the outside it looked deliberate and extremely cynical. Absolutely deserved a much harsher penalty, a race disqualification in my view. The stewards continuing to tolerate this behaviour from Verstappen without proper sanction is only going to see it continue. I hope we don't arrive at a point in the future where his stupidity and red mist has lethal consequences for himself or another driver.

Also thought his hiding behind fear of supposed FIA sanctions if he "spoke his mind" about the incident post-race was pretty feeble. He made a mistake, he knows he made a mistake, he should have manned up and owned his mistake instead of the cowardly path he took. It's disappointing that a driver with so much natural ability is also cursed with the affliction of being unable to do any wrong in his own mind.

On Lawson, had the above incident been properly dealt with, the Kiwi would have come away with a point for his efforts. He was shafted by the Safety Car rolling out of pit lane just in front of him, as well as the Mercedes blowing up and allowing Alonso to get some fresh rubber and take the point off him. But that's racing. It felt like he had a big hand in Hulkenberg's dramatic rise from obscurity on Lap 1 by the choice he made into Turn 1. Again, that's racing. Lawson made some slick passes on Albon but looked desperate in his attempts on Bearman when it was clear from 200 metres out that the moves just weren't on. He needs to sharpen up his decision-making, play the longer game in situations like the Bearman overtake, and he will instantly look a much better driver. He does have good race pace generally as a driver.

Also continue to be impressed by Marko coming down the grid to wish Lawson good luck just before the start at each race. It seems like he continues to enjoy the support of the Doctor, despite how the season has unfolded so far. Hopefully that plays in Lawson's favour when Red Bull decide who has to make way to accommodate Lindblad. Speaking of which, the Brit took the Feature Race in F2 and is now into P3 in the championship. The closer he gets to winning that title, the more likely it is that he stays until the end of the season and Lawson's seat is safe at Racing Bulls for 2025 I think.

Nice post, I like the detail. I will respond by paragraph.

Toto, yes it was measured for sure, not the usual response you would get from him, or Horner in that position. What I read into this is Max will move to Mercedes. Toto being passive, tick. He has been courting Max, tick. George has no contract. George is excellent, I rate him just behind Charles, so thats excellent. He beat Lewis last year, Lewis with his age has lost the edge, and perhaps some motivation. Lewis also cant keep up with Charles. Mercedes like Ferrari has at times looked great, George has been very good and consistent and has had podiums. Replace that with Max and you get a very strong gain. And a potential team with Max, the best driver I have seen, in a top team, with Antonelli in tow. Lots to like.

Max is agressive and he has had his fair share of penalties. My outstanding point is did Max as he said make a misjudgement, in trying to get the place back after just giving it back and he ran wide? Or did he say I cant win the WDC Ive got no hope so I will do a Nascar and push him into the wall? I doubt that. He was on hards which were useless. He accelerated before the apex, he didnt turn the wheel right to push George off, the tyres didnt cooperate. Same with George who made an error passing Max when he hit Max, blame that on LeClerc's backwash of air, racing incident.

Dont agree with that entirely. He made a mistake, has later admitted it was a misjudgement. But yes, the first interview he didnt man up, thats your opinion I have mine.

Liam, yes, but he wasnt shafted by the safety car he was shafted by his team, everyone behind him pitted. That broke his race. But IMHO he has stepped up. I feel he needs to push it and he did that in all FP sessions.

Marko, nice to see. Last year with his two brief stints, no notice, hadn't raced at most tracks, that was seriously impressive, hopefully he is over the 2025 pressure and goes hard to show his wares. he was on it first up in the three FP sessions (aside from using the air strakes early on)

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#3380019 3-Jun-2025 03:27

Lots and lots of hate for Max all of a sudden... with some being fueled by poor commentary.

Case in point - When Charles clearly wandered into his sidepod while Max was driving in a perfect straight line - Nico Rosberg immediately apportioned all blame to Max.

The Max/George collision was clumsy - at full speed I wasn't sure if he was distracted ranting at his race engineer or ran wide thinking George would cut and pass on the inside. I'm guessing he was fuming at a Marc causing the SC, Poor tyre choice or lack of communication from his race engineer, Charles driving into him, and finally his race engineer providing bad advice. Clearly not his finest moment - but a long way from the level required for a disqualification.

Seems almost all drivers and teams had a weekend to forget.

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#3380028 3-Jun-2025 07:57

I loved the race, Oscar just on top of his game and the WDC is his IMO. As posted previously I love nothing more than Max getting angry, of course he is a great driver but in the last 2 years how many first lap incidents have there been involving him?

He loves dishing it out but when the pressure or penalties hit him he cracks and its great theatre. I loved his interview after the race where they wanted to talk about the incident with George and he said he'd rather talk about the race. He said he doesn't feel he has a WDC chance which is correct with RBR.

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#3380140 3-Jun-2025 12:12

tdgeek:

Liam, yes, but he wasnt shafted by the safety car he was shafted by his team, everyone behind him pitted. That broke his race.

My understanding is that it was the specific timing of the deployment of the Safety Car and the associated "Safety Car Line" which actually made it impossible for Lawson to get the "free" pitstop afforded to his rivals immediately behind him. If the Safety Car had come out of pit lane to pick up Piastri's car just a few moments later (Lawson himself indicated he thought it was half a second) then he could have done what Borteleto and Alonso did. Had Racing Bulls pitted Liam anyway then he would have suffered from not being able to un-lap himself and definitely out of the points, potentially last.

Therefore, they did the only thing they could do which was stay out and hope they could hold onto the place until the end. Had the Safety Car remained on track for just one more lap, Liam may have been able to stay ahead of Alonso to the chequered flag. Had Antonelli not blown his engine triggering the Safety Car, Alonso wouldn't have got the fresh tires and Liam would have most likely held on. Had Verstappen been properly sanctioned (IMHO) for his reckless act and dropped right out of the points as was fully deserved (IMHO), then Liam would have scored a point. Really rotten luck on several counts for Lawson.

Yes, I agree he is improving and becoming more competitive overall. Aside from his occasional clumsy overtakes, which I think are fuelled by the pressure of his situation than any lack of ability, he has decent race pace. Where the whole situation is failing for him at the moment is his poor qualifying skills. His improved Free Practice efforts suggest it should come. The record sits at 7-1 in Hadjar's favour and it's vital Liam gets that closer to 50% before the end of the season if he is to secure a 2026 seat. He can't keep getting beat by Hadjar in Qualifying by a quarter of a second.

But Lawson knows the task and I have faith in him to get it done, he is on the improve for sure.

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#3380147 3-Jun-2025 12:40

JPNZ:

of course he is a great driver but in the last 2 years how many first lap incidents have there been involving him?

Well, enough incidents overall in races over the past 12 months that he has 11 penalty points on his licence. His gained three points for his efforts in Barcelona. He has to behave himself for the next two weekends until some points expire as one more point will trigger a race ban for him.

He should consider himself very lucky with the outcome of his actions. Had the incident resulted in Russell crashing out of the race, or some kind of injury to either of them, I doubt it would have been handled as leniently by the stewards or that Wolff wouldn't have been straight down to their room to protest.

I sincerely hope for Verstappen's sake that he doesn't have an incident whereby he injures himself or another driver, or worse, and the benefit of hindsight makes that outcome seem inevitable on reflection. There will be hell to pay if such an event occurs when the FIA have had ample opportunities to stamp his demonstrated reckless driving behaviour out.

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#3380212 3-Jun-2025 16:23

thermonuclear:

My understanding is that it was the specific timing of the deployment of the Safety Car and the associated "Safety Car Line" which actually made it impossible for Lawson to get the "free" pitstop afforded to his rivals immediately behind him. If the Safety Car had come out of pit lane to pick up Piastri's car just a few moments later (Lawson himself indicated he thought it was half a second) then he could have done what Borteleto and Alonso did. Had Racing Bulls pitted Liam anyway then he would have suffered from not being able to un-lap himself and definitely out of the points, potentially last.

\

not true, SC was called upon when he was halfway through, and his race engineer had ample time to bring him in for a pit stop, but his engineer said stay out.

the issue was however, as he circulated, he was picked up by the safety car as he passed the grandstand because piatri came out in right in front of him. i mean, what do you expect, of course you will be picked up be the safety car when you pass the pit exit if you calculated that you were going to be behind oscar. not sure what he was blaming there.

later, he was released to go around, and he became the lead car for the rest of the backmarker convoy. he was given 2 laps to catch up to the back of the pack (that's why the lead cars were unhappy), however for some reason he wasn't able to catch the back of the lead train. he was moving real slow like he was behind the safety car. i thought they just speed up like teen boys in the open road in the night.

that meant he had no chance to challenge for places higher up, which was not a big issue, the main issue was he failed to pull away out of DRS range from the cars behind and Alonso caught him. if he was 4 seconds faster in finishing the race he would have ended up ahead of Max.

again finding something else to blame. happens every race there's always someone to blame, something else to blame.

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#3380218 3-Jun-2025 16:45

JPNZ:

I loved the race, Oscar just on top of his game and the WDC is his IMO.

you're forgetting that literally every other race a Mercedes engine packs up, and we are less than halfway through the season. Lando is also not a bad racer and has the same car.

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#3380230 3-Jun-2025 18:24

I've noticed Liam is instantly pretty quick over a race weekend, but he only improves slightly as the practise sessions go on vs his team mate who improves consistently across all 3.

Some of his passes again were just not on and he's approaching this like he's likely been able to do in the past, where against lower skilled drivers you can throw one up the inside etc. Basically at times he's driving like it's closed wheel nascar.

He's had several races with collisions with others and it feels like that personal annoyance of mine where passes only work where the other car chooses the smart move to get out of the way. May have been able to get away with that in the lower grades but in F1 you need to be way more precise.

Max is that embodiment of a narcissist type winning personality. Dudes exceptional but does rather lose it when the package overall isn't going well. Oscar is like full introvert. Both of them are hard to battle with and Lando's biggest issue is between his ears as they say now. I only hope Lando can refresh on teh mid year break like he's done in the past. He needs to get out of his own head (and start better) to progress.

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#3380418 4-Jun-2025 13:28

Batman:

not true, SC was called upon when he was halfway through, and his race engineer had ample time to bring him in for a pit stop, but his engineer said stay out.

My mistake Batman, you are correct. I took Lawson's post-race comments at his word when he bizarrely put it all on the Safety Car.

I had a look at the on-boards yesterday for Lawson, Hadjar and Alonso to better understand what they all did. You are correct to say he could have come in first time around but was told to stay out. Hadjar was also told to stay out first time past pit entry so both cars got the same instruction initially. However as soon as the Safety Car was deployed, Alonso and Hadjar both asked their engineers to box for fresher rubber. Alonso came straight in on his first time past the pits for used softs and Hadjar went around once more then pitted for used softs.

What struck me again was there was far more and decisive communication from Alonso and Hadjar's engineers. Aston Martin was immediately on the ball, maybe because they were only running one car. Hadjar had to do the extra lap but again they made the correct call for the tire change. I could speculate that maybe that's why Lawson didn't come in the second time around, because they had already given preference to Hadjar as the lead car and didn't want to chance a double-stack?

The communication did seem very indecisive from Desiderio, Lawson was questioning what was going on during the Safety Car and the Spaniard didn't seem to have the answers. You compare that to what Hadjar and Alonso were being fed by their engineers and you have to wonder. On the cool-down lap Desiderio told Lawson that they didn't react quickly enough to Alonso pitting and would have to review it. Lawson's silence in response to that was deafening. Makes it stranger that he would effectively tow the team line and not throw his engineer under the bus in the media pen afterwards.

I still think Hadjar is getting the best of it by having Pierre Hamelin as his Race Engineer. Desiderio doesn't seem as skilled, not as bad as Richard Wood was at Red Bull, but definitely no Hamelin. If Lawson can secure a seat with Racing Bulls next season, I hope he is able to request Hamelin back with Lindblad likely to come in as the new guy.

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#3380430 4-Jun-2025 14:07

thermonuclear:

Batman:

not true, SC was called upon when he was halfway through, and his race engineer had ample time to bring him in for a pit stop, but his engineer said stay out.

My mistake Batman, you are correct. I took Lawson's post-race comments at his word when he bizarrely put it all on the Safety Car.

I had a look at the on-boards yesterday for Lawson, Hadjar and Alonso to better understand what they all did. You are correct to say he could have come in first time around but was told to stay out. Hadjar was also told to stay out first time past pit entry so both cars got the same instruction initially. However as soon as the Safety Car was deployed, Alonso and Hadjar both asked their engineers to box for fresher rubber. Alonso came straight in on his first time past the pits for used softs and Hadjar went around once more then pitted for used softs.

What struck me again was there was far more and decisive communication from Alonso and Hadjar's engineers. Aston Martin was immediately on the ball, maybe because they were only running one car. Hadjar had to do the extra lap but again they made the correct call for the tire change. I could speculate that maybe that's why Lawson didn't come in the second time around, because they had already given preference to Hadjar as the lead car and didn't want to chance a double-stack?

The communication did seem very indecisive from Desiderio, Lawson was questioning what was going on during the Safety Car and the Spaniard didn't seem to have the answers. You compare that to what Hadjar and Alonso were being fed by their engineers and you have to wonder. On the cool-down lap Desiderio told Lawson that they didn't react quickly enough to Alonso pitting and would have to review it. Lawson's silence in response to that was deafening. Makes it stranger that he would effectively tow the team line and not throw his engineer under the bus in the media pen afterwards.

I still think Hadjar is getting the best of it by having Pierre Hamelin as his Race Engineer. Desiderio doesn't seem as skilled, not as bad as Richard Wood was at Red Bull, but definitely no Hamelin. If Lawson can secure a seat with Racing Bulls next season, I hope he is able to request Hamelin back with Lindblad likely to come in as the new guy.

I don't watch onboards, but I watched a YT clip of all of Max's audio with GP, pretty cool. General info and advice where the car in front and behind is, lots of button and mode management stuff. Unsure if that's typical, perhaps Thermo you hear the ongoing audio if you watch onboards?

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#3380468 4-Jun-2025 16:03

thermonuclear:

<snip>

I had a look at the on-boards yesterday for Lawson, Hadjar and Alonso to better understand what they all did. You are correct to say he could have come in first time around but was told to stay out. Hadjar was also told to stay out first time past pit entry so both cars got the same instruction initially. However as soon as the Safety Car was deployed, Alonso and Hadjar both asked their engineers to box for fresher rubber. Alonso came straight in on his first time past the pits for used softs and Hadjar went around once more then pitted for used softs.

Is this on F1TV? I don't often watch the dedicated onboard streams but wanted to replay the onboards of Max's meltdown(s). When I've done this previously, you just get the dedicated driver-race engineer audio in real time. However now I seem to get the Sky commentary. Did something change or did I just mis-remember?

Interestingly, Max's onboard also cuts to rear view a little bit before the George Inschident so you can't actually see or hear Max's view of what happened anyway.

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#3380479 4-Jun-2025 17:06

mdf:

Interestingly, Max's onboard also cuts to rear view a little bit before the George Inschident so you can't actually see or hear Max's view of what happened anyway.

I've yet to watch it (will probably in a few hours while having dinner), but Jolyon Palmer's analysis show went up earlier this morning, and the title/etc it sounds like they have the additional angles.

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