Rugby World Cup 2007

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210 posts

Master Geek
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#90721 11-Oct-2007 20:23

paddyJoeOB: i am am irish guy and joined the forum to see what the feelings in NZ would be like following the defeat. i too am bitterly disappointed by our own performance in the cup but i find some of the rants about the referee completely off the wall. how can it be that he deliberately cheated?? how can it be that he was paid money to ensure an AB loss?? how can it be that civilised people believe this and also can condone the wikipedia entries?? this is utter drival. the match was there only to be lost by the ABs. never has a team performed so well over the last number of years and come into a tournament as such raging hot favourites. by the standards set in previous games the ABs underperformed and lacked shape, confidence and abandoned their successful game plan in the last 15 mins in favour of a pick and go strategy. actually to a neutral the lack of performance could have been forecast (and was among my company watching the match) during the haka. when the french put it up to them it was obvious that some of the players were less than comfortable and looked away from the the french. check it out on youtube. i appreciate that feelings are running high but it is important to be dignified in defeat.

First of all, no one here has condoned what was written on Wikipedia about the referee, so you are quite wrong with that statement.

The Referee made some appalling decisions:

# Sending off Luke McAlister, when he should not have been sent off, he done nothing wrong, check the rule book. France got a try 8 minutes later as a result.

# If Luke McAlister was deemed to have broken the rules, then why didn't the French player get sent off for doing "exactly the same thing, later in the game"? Where is the consistency here? The Ref was right there.

# Missing the forward pass, that lead to another French try, it was so blatantly forward it was a joke.

# The All Blacks getting penalised for turning the scrum? This is allowed, it's not against the rules & usually results in the team who turned the scrum to have the put in.

# The French being off side on many occassions, nothing was done.

# The French having their hands in ruck, nothing was done.

I've said it before, I would not of minded one bit if the French one fair & square & if there was no controversy, but there was & that is what I find such a real shame.

Zimsar10

210 posts

Master Geek
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#90722 11-Oct-2007 20:24

TinyTim:
ZIMsar10:Also, the IRB said Wayne Barnes would not be used in any more of the games, which casts doubt over his ability & begs the question why was he used in the first place, with such a vitally important match & his severe lack of experience at International level??

I don't question his inexperience, but there are only three more games, and at least one has England in it, so that doesn't leave much need for him.

Agreed, but he should never had been there in the first place.

n00dy

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#90725 11-Oct-2007 20:39

a very interesting peice on the Dominion today (thursday) where the game was reviewed by a (unnamed) NZ ref (top10) and he points out serious judgement calls on both NZ & French made for an interesting read. But at the end of the day it can not be changed.

TinyTim

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#90732 11-Oct-2007 21:03

And at the end of the day, almost any team can win (yes, even the English (-: ). That's what makes (should make) the tournament exciting - like the soccer world cup where so much of it comes down to luck and chance. The fact that the NZRU had a "win at all costs" policy (and sacrificed so much in the process) is therefore ridiculous. They should instead focus on the ABs retaining the #1 ranking. And running a good NPC tournament. (Go Hawke's Bay!)

Zimsar10

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Master Geek
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#90733 11-Oct-2007 21:04

n00dy: a very interesting peice on the Dominion today (thursday) where the game was reviewed by a (unnamed) NZ ref (top10) and he points out serious judgement calls on both NZ & French made for an interesting read. But at the end of the day it can not be changed.

That goes without saying. However, is there any chance you could post that article on here? Do you have a scanner? I would be most interested to read that article, if at all possible.

Zimsar10

210 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user

#90735 11-Oct-2007 21:06

TinyTim: And at the end of the day, almost any team can win (yes, even the English (-: ). That's what makes (should make) the tournament exciting - like the soccer world cup where so much of it comes down to luck and chance. The fact that the NZRU had a "win at all costs" policy (and sacrificed so much in the process) is therefore ridiculous. They should instead focus on the ABs retaining the #1 ranking. And running a good NPC tournament. (Go Hawke's Bay!)

RE: NZRU - Jock Hobbs was openly critical of the Referee on TV 2 days ago.

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zaptor

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#90753 11-Oct-2007 22:15

ZIMsar10:
n00dy: a very interesting peice on the Dominion today (thursday) where the game was reviewed by a (unnamed) NZ ref (top10) and he points out serious judgement calls on both NZ & French made for an interesting read. But at the end of the day it can not be changed.

That goes without saying. However, is there any chance you could post that article on here? Do you have a scanner? I would be most interested to read that article, if at all possible.

Hmmm... I couldn't see it anywhere in today's Dom. A story like that would probably make onto RugbyHeaven as well.

Maybe a page number to prove he's not yanking your chain...

paddyJoeOB

3 posts

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#90761 11-Oct-2007 23:16

ZIMsar10:
paddyJoeOB: i am am irish guy and joined the forum to see what the feelings in NZ would be like following the defeat. i too am bitterly disappointed by our own performance in the cup but i find some of the rants about the referee completely off the wall. how can it be that he deliberately cheated?? how can it be that he was paid money to ensure an AB loss?? how can it be that civilised people believe this and also can condone the wikipedia entries?? this is utter drival. the match was there only to be lost by the ABs. never has a team performed so well over the last number of years and come into a tournament as such raging hot favourites. by the standards set in previous games the ABs underperformed and lacked shape, confidence and abandoned their successful game plan in the last 15 mins in favour of a pick and go strategy. actually to a neutral the lack of performance could have been forecast (and was among my company watching the match) during the haka. when the french put it up to them it was obvious that some of the players were less than comfortable and looked away from the the french. check it out on youtube. i appreciate that feelings are running high but it is important to be dignified in defeat.

First of all, no one here has condoned what was written on Wikipedia about the referee, so you are quite wrong with that statement.

The Referee made some appalling decisions:

# Sending off Luke McAlister, when he should not have been sent off, he done nothing wrong, check the rule book. France got a try 8 minutes later as a result.

# If Luke McAlister was deemed to have broken the rules, then why didn't the French player get sent off for doing "exactly the same thing, later in the game"? Where is the consistency here? The Ref was right there.

# Missing the forward pass, that lead to another French try, it was so blatantly forward it was a joke.

# The All Blacks getting penalised for turning the scrum? This is allowed, it's not against the rules & usually results in the team who turned the scrum to have the put in.

# The French being off side on many occassions, nothing was done.

# The French having their hands in ruck, nothing was done.

I've said it before, I would not of minded one bit if the French one fair & square & if there was no controversy, but there was & that is what I find such a real shame.

I do not doubt some of what you say. The point is that referees just like supporters are not infallible, refereeing is an inexact science. Tight decisions sometimes go for you and sometimes against, this is accepted by players and objective pundits. Even the ABs have been on the good side of some of these decisions and it is generally accepted also that the ABs like all top teams live life on the edge of the rule book and are no angels when it comes to the 'black arts' at the breakdown and elsewhere. Given this, the point I am making is that throwing ones toys out of the pram and screaming conspiracy theory when it does not go your way is a bit rich and does nothing for the image of the ABs outside of NZ.

paddyJoeOB

3 posts

Wannabe Geek

#90766 11-Oct-2007 23:55

KiwiOverseas66:
paddyJoeOB: i am am irish guy and joined the forum to see what the feelings in NZ would be like following the defeat. i too am bitterly disappointed by our own performance in the cup but i find some of the rants about the referee completely off the wall. how can it be that he deliberately cheated?? how can it be that he was paid money to ensure an AB loss?? how can it be that civilised people believe this and also can condone the wikipedia entries?? this is utter drival. the match was there only to be lost by the ABs. never has a team performed so well over the last number of years and come into a tournament as such raging hot favourites. by the standards set in previous games the ABs underperformed and lacked shape, confidence and abandoned their successful game plan in the last 15 mins in favour of a pick and go strategy. actually to a neutral the lack of performance could have been forecast (and was among my company watching the match) during the haka. when the french put it up to them it was obvious that some of the players were less than comfortable and looked away from the the french. check it out on youtube. i appreciate that feelings are running high but it is important to be dignified in defeat.

of course you're absolutely right. Some of the reactions have been way over the top - but that's the fans for you. The ABs themselves have had nothing but praise for the french and not a single critical word about the ref - so I think that fits the bill when it comes to dignity. Which is more than I can say for this article - http://timesonline.typepad.com/rugby/2007/10/new-zealand-exi.html . Ouch - did someone in black run over this guys dog or something? Seems that some northern commentators, after spending most of the tournament putting the boot into the English team, are suddernly their new best friend - and have started putting the boot in the kiwis and Aussies. With friends like these..... This guy needs a pulpit, not a blog.

I actually really enjoyed the game. Disappointed that NZ lost, but I thought the ABs played well (can anyone beat a rampaging France on their day)? I also wonder - what would the reaction have been if it was an NZ - England quarter final with England leading into the last five minutes and then NZ scores a late try on a flat pass (let alone a forward pass). I think the reaction would be the same.

By the way - what happend to the Irish team? No shortage of talent there - but they got comprehensively pushed around by the Argentinians?

I understand the 'emotional fan' thing I have had to be grounded myself many times. Yea the tone of the article is strong but rightly or wrongly it does reflect a significant body of emerging opinion on the ABs this side of the pond. Also this debate is hotting up for some reason which contrary to what some NZers (they poisoned us!) might think this is against how the ABs have been viewed up to this. Certainly in Ireland brand AB was positive but I detect signs of change. For instance I read a lot of commentary on rugby and a lot of very good respected pundits Irish and English (not the tabloid kind) are starting to write less than complimentary things about the haka and about 'brand AB' in general. Obviously when you are the best team around you expect to be shot at and some of what is written is certainly down to this but also when you have people from England, SA, and Australia (Jesus!!) accusing you of gross arrogance and unsportsmanlike behaviour I think its time to sit up and take notice. Personally I think its got something to do with the fact that as you guys are continually re-inventing and setting the playing standards for rugby on the field (what a standard - no question there) you must also be seen to be setting the standards off the field as well.

Wrt the Irish performance, yes we are all very disappointed. Not being nearly a rugby power (its ranks 3rd or 4th as a national sport here) this was one time when we sent a decent batch of talented players to the cup, so there was definitely a greater level of expectation. And looking at how things have turned out this was certainly justified. The inquest is ongoing as to what happened and yes feelings are running high here also!

KiwiOverseas66

173 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user

#90769 12-Oct-2007 02:35

paddyJoeOB:
I understand the 'emotional fan' thing I have had to be grounded myself many times. Yea the tone of the article is strong but rightly or wrongly it does reflect a significant body of emerging opinion on the ABs this side of the pond. Also this debate is hotting up for some reason which contrary to what some NZers (they poisoned us!) might think this is against how the ABs have been viewed up to this. Certainly in Ireland brand AB was positive but I detect signs of change. For instance I read a lot of commentary on rugby and a lot of very good respected pundits Irish and English (not the tabloid kind) are starting to write less than complimentary things about the haka and about 'brand AB' in general. Obviously when you are the best team around you expect to be shot at and some of what is written is certainly down to this but also when you have people from England, SA, and Australia (Jesus!!) accusing you of gross arrogance and unsportsmanlike behaviour I think its time to sit up and take notice. Personally I think its got something to do with the fact that as you guys are continually re-inventing and setting the playing standards for rugby on the field (what a standard - no question there) you must also be seen to be setting the standards off the field as well.

Wrt the Irish performance, yes we are all very disappointed. Not being nearly a rugby power (its ranks 3rd or 4th as a national sport here) this was one time when we sent a decent batch of talented players to the cup, so there was definitely a greater level of expectation. And looking at how things have turned out this was certainly justified. The inquest is ongoing as to what happened and yes feelings are running high here also!

I've written in a couple of other forums that hopefully no one would be silly enough to judge NZ rugby and rugby fans on the actions of a few, any more than anyone else thinks all English football supporters are hooligans because a few get out of hand. Some of the forums have been pretty hot though - this one included at times :-)

What has been surprising is the way some scribes, coaches have jumped on the French defeat of the ABs as if it was their own team! The French - who actually played the game and won, have been suitably silent about the whole thing. Some of the commentary in the Times especially has said nothing about the actual rugby - but has been an overwhelming outpouring of vitriolic scorn on all things to do with the all blacks (brand, haka, attitude, players, the NZRFU, etc). In some cases it turned into journos trading barbs at each other! As for the accusation of arrogance and unsportsmanlike behaviour - funnily enough not one of their critics can actually name an All Black who has said or done anything unsportsmanlike during the tournament (although Doug Howlett had a melt down of sorts). I think some of it is simply a perverse delight in seeing the ABs tumble, and delighting in their misfortune - which is sad really. These guys are just rugby players - none of them come from sporting elite or anything like that. The one comforting thing is that their harshest critics were putting the boot into the English team only a week ago - which says it all really.

Re the ref - I've taken the view that these things can go either way, and the French still played superb rugby - and I thoroughly enjoyed the game. At the same time the whole point of the contest is a test of skill, strength, tatics, etc - between the two teams. The outcome needs to be decided by the teams on the field, not the officials - otherwise instead of being a competition it becomes a lottery. When that happens - the players themselves loose out since the outcome of the game is no longer due to their actions - and that's disappointing. It would be untrue to say the officials don't need to improve their game as there are always improvements to be made - and it is necessary to ensure improvements are made (and that the whole thing isn't simply swept under the carpet) otherwise the same mistakes will be repeated. Plus in the same way teams continual try to improve themselves, I don't see anything wrong with the official doing likewise.

yeah - Ireland and Scotland. I war really expecting a lot more. In the final six months before the tournament Ireland got some good results and looked really good. I sort of always expect that at a world cup - there is going to be a strong England, France , Ireland, Scotland, and Welsh presence. England and France are playing great rugby at the right end of the tournament. Overall I can't wait for this weekend! Two cracking good games!

Nightwyrm

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#90773 12-Oct-2007 07:43

ZIMsar10: RE: NZRU - Jock Hobbs was openly critical of the Referee on TV 2 days ago.

And he got told off for it too.

IMHO, the ABs went in and played like they expected to win. The French played with heart (something I think the ABs regularly lack) and it showed. If the ABs were all they were cracked up to be, they should have been ahead enough that the referee decisions didn't matter.

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maninimepo

72 posts

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#91029 14-Oct-2007 21:47

I believe England don't have what it takes to beat France, hence $20 they won't.

England are incapable of scoring tries

Yes, quite right ZIMsar10.

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freitasm

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#91048 14-Oct-2007 22:52

On the spur of the moment we decided to go to Martinborough for the weekend, leaving 2pm from Wellington. Isabella did really well, sleeping on somewhere new... But she woke up at 5:30am, which means an early start for us - and for once I actually watched a match.

England managed to score a try at 1:28. So I think we should collect $20 now...

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#91056 15-Oct-2007 03:36

go Poms! well the least of 4 evils (france SA arg) anyway ...

so now everyone on this forum should be getting $20 broadband credit each ...

Zimsar10

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Master Geek
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#91138 15-Oct-2007 18:55

freitasm:
On the spur of the moment we decided to go to Martinborough for the weekend, leaving 2pm from Wellington. Isabella did really well, sleeping on somewhere new... But she woke up at 5:30am, which means an early start for us - and for once I actually watched a match.

England managed to score a try at 1:28. So I think we should collect $20 now...

Please PM me your Bank Account details.

I will say it now, for everyone to hear - South Africa will win the 2007 Rugby World Cup, this time I will be right.

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