Israel Folau saga.

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#2264214 25-Jun-2019 15:47

I don't really care what people believe in, if people think there are mole people that control the earth then good on them, if people think there is a higher power controlling things then that's fine.

The issue I have is when people say another set of people that has no affect on their own life is going to spend the rest of time in a "not so cool place" and that it's their job to force their 3 eyed 18 nose overlord on the rest of us that have no interest in their "gods" or "mole people".

If you have faith in something then that is great for you, just don't force that on anyone else or judge others for what they do with their own lives.

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#2264217 25-Jun-2019 15:51

tdgeek: How does "effeminate...shall not inherit the kingdom of God" Translate to "send all homosexuals to hell?

For what it's worth...

Obviously the "effeminate" vs. "homosexual" translation is contentious. As far as I'm aware the "homosexual" translation is more dominant/conventional today.
"...shall not inherit the kingdom of God..." is a widely understood [amongst Christians] euphemism for not going to heaven. In a traditional/fundamentalist Christian worldview, if you don't go to heaven, you go to hell.

Disclaimer: I am not a Bible scholar or a Christian.

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#2264309 25-Jun-2019 17:06

I have no problem with religions and the people that believe in them. However, Vaughan on ZM made a point that I really agree with. As a religious person how can one see Israel Folau's fundraising campaign and choose to donate towards that and pass up on the 100's of other charities and the like that speak more to your religious values? Israel is not poor, he has cash and he has millions of dollars worth of investment properties and is perfectly capable of funding his own legal campaign.

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mm1352000

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#2264312 25-Jun-2019 17:19

Obraik:

I have no problem with religions and the people that believe in them. However, Vaughan on ZM made a point that I really agree with. As a religious person how can one see Israel Folau's fundraising campaign and choose to donate towards that and pass up on the 100's of other charities and the like that speak more to your religious values? Israel is not poor, he has cash and he has millions of dollars worth of investment properties and is perfectly capable of funding his own legal campaign.

In answer to your question: I assume it's not an either/or situation. In other words people will donate both to charities and the campaign according to their priorities/values. If they choose to donate to the campaign, it is obviously something that has some importance to them.

Personally I'm not going to leap to conclusions about Folau's finances, though all the signs do suggest that he is not poor. Cashflow can be a funny thing. Putting that aside (and playing the devils advocate), what is wrong with offering a mechanism for people to support him if they also feel strongly about their religious freedom?

Rikkitic

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#2264316 25-Jun-2019 17:27

mm1352000:

Rikkitic:

I am not religious but I don't have a problem with those who are, especially if they are sincere about it. But anyone who takes today's bible literally, or even (especially) the version published in 1611, is simply being ignorant. It is a mishmash of misinterpretation and inaccurate translation and personal prejudice spanning two millennia. If you really think this is the word of god, then at least have the decency to learn Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, and spend a few decades studying some cultural archaeology so you at least have a minimal understanding of what it is actually saying.

I assume you realise that the vast majority of people who might describe themselves as sincere Christians don't learn Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek.

The vast majority also don't think the bible is the literal truth.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

mm1352000

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#2264320 25-Jun-2019 17:42

Rikkitic:

mm1352000:

I assume you realise that the vast majority of people who might describe themselves as sincere Christians don't learn Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek.

The vast majority also don't think the bible is the literal truth.

Sure, the vast majority don't think the whole bible is literal truth. From what I've heard/read the bible contains a mixture of content types that varies from book to book and chapter - poetry, songs, genealogies etc. etc. etc. You'd have to be stupid to interpret [for example] a metaphorical song or poem as literal truth. I really doubt Folau is that stupid.

If, on the other hand, you mean that the vast majority don't interpret any of the bible as literal truth then I respectfully disagree.

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Handle9

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#2264321 25-Jun-2019 17:43

Rikkitic:

mm1352000:

Rikkitic:

I am not religious but I don't have a problem with those who are, especially if they are sincere about it. But anyone who takes today's bible literally, or even (especially) the version published in 1611, is simply being ignorant. It is a mishmash of misinterpretation and inaccurate translation and personal prejudice spanning two millennia. If you really think this is the word of god, then at least have the decency to learn Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, and spend a few decades studying some cultural archaeology so you at least have a minimal understanding of what it is actually saying.

I assume you realise that the vast majority of people who might describe themselves as sincere Christians don't learn Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek.

The vast majority also don't think the bible is the literal truth.

"I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent." is pretty clear I would have thought? Definitely applicable in todays society.

tdgeek

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#2264323 25-Jun-2019 17:47

mm1352000:

gzt: I've seen a few posts more or less assuming this could happen to any employee or that this could occur in any employment relationship. That is absolutely incorrect.

True if you assume that Folau repeatedly discriminated, and in so doing breached his contract. Some people obviously don't agree with that assessment, least of all Folau himself.

The key word is SOME

Folau feel that everything he feels is right. A man admits they are wrong. The Bible said some behaviours are wrong. Thats ONE feeling. What about today?? NZ was the first to give women a vote, and as we all know today, its abut equality. Equality in itself is a GOOD if not sound measure. Or should we go by the Bible?

He signed a contract which included code of conduct. If you believe in Nazism and followed that, it doesn't make it right. Whats right is the common good.

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#2264324 25-Jun-2019 17:49

It’s saddening that so many chose religion as their excuse to be total muppets and dicks, be they for or against religion.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

tdgeek

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#2264330 25-Jun-2019 17:59

mm1352000:

tdgeek: How does "effeminate...shall not inherit the kingdom of God" Translate to "send all homosexuals to hell?

For what it's worth...

Obviously the "effeminate" vs. "homosexual" translation is contentious. As far as I'm aware the "homosexual" translation is more dominant/conventional today.
"...shall not inherit the kingdom of God..." is a widely understood [amongst Christians] euphemism for not going to heaven. In a traditional/fundamentalist Christian worldview, if you don't go to heaven, you go to hell.

Disclaimer: I am not a Bible scholar or a Christian.

You are going around in circles seeking justification.

Effeminate doesnt mean homosexual. It might for one man it may not for another. Then you say it means homosexual today. Thats says it all.

So not going to heaven which Folau could have said, if he had any sense or morals, does not mean going to hell. It may well do for hard core believers. Where does he have a right to enact HIS attitude on the greater population? Is Israel Folau now a representative of God? He may well be in HIS FAMILY'S church. I do rate him above Destiny Church, but that's not a compliment

People who are gay, or religious or whatever is fine. People who think ANYTHING that owns us is not fine. I do wonder what todays children think of religion. In some respects it doesnt emit kindness. Im not religious but when I was a kid it emitted kindness

And here we are , a bigot and a selfish brat is getting financial support that he doesnt need (aka greed) from the Church.

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#2264331 25-Jun-2019 18:00

MikeB4: It’s saddening that so many chose religion as their excuse to be total muppets and dicks, be they for or against religion.

Yeah, it's one of those strange ones. Religion brings meaning to many peoples lives and can be very positive.

The overriding messages of Christianity are great, unfortunately some people like to tell others how to live their lives and can't see how it can be hurtful and negative to others.

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tdgeek

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#2264334 25-Jun-2019 18:03

Obraik:

I have no problem with religions and the people that believe in them. However, Vaughan on ZM made a point that I really agree with. As a religious person how can one see Israel Folau's fundraising campaign and choose to donate towards that and pass up on the 100's of other charities and the like that speak more to your religious values? Israel is not poor, he has cash and he has millions of dollars worth of investment properties and is perfectly capable of funding his own legal campaign.

I agree fully mate. I do wonder how many religious people feel the same. I feel, and I have no evidence, that many religious people feel unhappy about this. Greed is fairly easy to define. Religion that I know, and I dont practice it, is about GOOD

"Its not about the money"

"I will happily walk away"

tdgeek

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#2264335 25-Jun-2019 18:05

mm1352000:

Obraik:

I have no problem with religions and the people that believe in them. However, Vaughan on ZM made a point that I really agree with. As a religious person how can one see Israel Folau's fundraising campaign and choose to donate towards that and pass up on the 100's of other charities and the like that speak more to your religious values? Israel is not poor, he has cash and he has millions of dollars worth of investment properties and is perfectly capable of funding his own legal campaign.

In answer to your question: I assume it's not an either/or situation. In other words people will donate both to charities and the campaign according to their priorities/values. If they choose to donate to the campaign, it is obviously something that has some importance to them.

Personally I'm not going to leap to conclusions about Folau's finances, though all the signs do suggest that he is not poor. Cashflow can be a funny thing. Putting that aside (and playing the devils advocate), what is wrong with offering a mechanism for people to support him if they also feel strongly about their religious freedom?

Here on GZ I have played the devils advocate. But my bar far exceeds this. This is 2019, if you are ok with discrimination I guess thats ok. Im not

mm1352000

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#2264336 25-Jun-2019 18:07

tdgeek:

Whats right is the common good.

This is totally an expression of your worldview. I don't mean to speak for Folau (or anybody else) but it's quite obvious that people's worldviews vary, and so not everybody shares the same worldview as you or as Folau.

tdgeek

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#2264339 25-Jun-2019 18:12

Handle9:

Rikkitic:

mm1352000:

Rikkitic:

I am not religious but I don't have a problem with those who are, especially if they are sincere about it. But anyone who takes today's bible literally, or even (especially) the version published in 1611, is simply being ignorant. It is a mishmash of misinterpretation and inaccurate translation and personal prejudice spanning two millennia. If you really think this is the word of god, then at least have the decency to learn Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, and spend a few decades studying some cultural archaeology so you at least have a minimal understanding of what it is actually saying.

I assume you realise that the vast majority of people who might describe themselves as sincere Christians don't learn Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek.

The vast majority also don't think the bible is the literal truth.

"I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent." is pretty clear I would have thought? Definitely applicable in todays society.

A few years ago, there was a book mentioned online. The duties of a wife. Cook, clean blah blah. Before hubby gets home , she has to put on makeup to look pristine.

That was NZ, circa 1900. Like the Bible that was the way it was. ITS NOT NOW

That book was a bible. Its not now. Everyone is against Folau, except some churches. I thought the Church was about good. I have no doubt some or most are, but this that donate, its dirty miney.

I see Maria Tuiteia is being looked at by ANZ. Isn't sow and you shall reap a Biblical proverb? This so reminds me of Animal Farm. We are all equal, bit some are more equal that others.

I hope other churches speak out.

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