Louis Vuitton Cup TV (and America's Cup) Coverage Discussion

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#3297535 15-Oct-2024 10:06

I watched the stern cameras of both boats for yesterday's race.

I think it's not just Foils and Rudders (and tactics) making the difference.

If you watch them both, the sails on Taihoro look much crisper and tighter. The Brittania mainsail has a wider gap between the skins (as it has to accommodate a couple of hydraulic pistons which Taihoro has under the deck) and looks a lot sloppier. This must make a difference in manoeuvres. According to Mozzy Sails (Youtube) ETNZ has a completely different control mechanism for their twin-skin sails than anyone else. He posited a few weeks back that it may cost them in needing more energy, but so far it's looking to be delivering.

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#3297536 15-Oct-2024 10:07

Results-wise it all looks very one-sided.
That really doesn't do either team justice.

This has been nail biting stuff at times. I don't think I have ever seen two fast boats like this cross a mark at the exact same time before.

Been very good for a non-sailor to watch, if I am honest.

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lchiu7

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#3297565 15-Oct-2024 11:33

tdgeek:

Re tacks, yes that seems to be a small advantage. In Kiwi's interest to make both boats tack more to build the gains up

Not losing much speed in a tack appears to be the Brit's view also. Huge advantage I guess?

https://youtu.be/HjXEkc3dmzM?si=1rSlhL2BcWdqStfa

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#3297577 15-Oct-2024 11:54

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/350451243/americas-cup-britannia-agree-disagree-after-heated-meeting-umpires-and-team-new

I'm not a sailing expert, but as far as I can tell, if the Kiwi's had right of way, well, they have right of way, simple as that

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#3297583 15-Oct-2024 12:33

My theory is that Team NZ has built a boat for manoeuvres and speed through tacks rather than outright fastest straight line speed. Given that the races (and especially the start sequence) is never a straight line race, this is quite clever, and appears to be working (though, every NZ AC follower will know to not count any chickens).

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#3297635 15-Oct-2024 12:58

tdgeek:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/350451243/americas-cup-britannia-agree-disagree-after-heated-meeting-umpires-and-team-new

I'm not a sailing expert, but as far as I can tell, if the Kiwi's had right of way, well, they have right of way, simple as that

I've done a lot of racing and I can't see the Brits have a leg to stand on. Port tack v Starboard tack is about as basic as it gets.

This makes them look desperate and rattled.

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#3297648 15-Oct-2024 14:01

johno1234:

tdgeek:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/350451243/americas-cup-britannia-agree-disagree-after-heated-meeting-umpires-and-team-new

I'm not a sailing expert, but as far as I can tell, if the Kiwi's had right of way, well, they have right of way, simple as that

I've done a lot of racing and I can't see the Brits have a leg to stand on. Port tack v Starboard tack is about as basic as it gets.

This makes them look desperate and rattled.

In fairness...I would be at this point.

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#3297902 15-Oct-2024 20:13

johno1234:
Whoever designed the foils and rudder is winning this thing for NZ.

Interestingly I have seen some theories that it is as much the way they control their rig as the foils and rudder that is helping them maintain their speed through maneuvers. I think the days of it just being one design element that makes the difference are largely over. Everyone is largely doing the same thing in design, it's the overall package that makes the difference between winning and losing.

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#3297919 15-Oct-2024 22:00

lchiu7:

Another win to TNZ. I wonder if that penalty at the start had a huge bearing on it since NZ seemed to increase its lead all the time and Brits just could not catch up?

Yes I think penalties play a big role, because ultimately whoever is in the lead at the first tack gets to choose the most beneficial (ie fast) course for themselves, and can punish the pursuing boat by throwing "dirty" air at them and forcing them to tack away, usually towards a part of the course that has less wind pressure. You can also try to always remain to starboard of them which guarantees they always need to give way to you at the cross.

So you end up with a sort of death of a thousand cuts scenario where the trailing boat gets a little bit further behind with each maneuver. But of course it only takes one of two things to turn it all around - the lead boat making a mistake (either tactical or handling), or a wind shift in favour of the trailing boat. To a certain extent you can counter the wind shifts by covering well - staying on the same side of the course as your opponent. Allowing the trailing team to sail to the opposite side of the course from you always carries some risk that a wind shift or pressure change could see them sailing past you on the cross back.

ETNZ are proving to be very slick on both fronts. Unlike Ineos, I don't think I've seen ETNZ make any tactical or handling errors, and they also read the pressure and shifts very well with constant communication about their next move, sometimes quite well in advance of making it, but also always prepared to change tack (!) on the fly.

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#3298344 17-Oct-2024 08:36

Disappointing day, but I feel there are positives.

Race 1 we got up on the foils with a 1666m deficit. Dont think they showed the metre gap when INEOS crossed the line but we seemed to gain back 300m or more on average. Given that wind wash was less an issue with that gap, we seem to be quicker

Race 2, lost the start, two small errors (INEOS did have one small error), 6 seconds behind first mark, 7 behind at the finish, so we matched them, despite INEOS had clean air and choice, we didnt.

Annecdotally, if we win the start we win by a few hundred metres, if they win the start they win by a few seconds. Bit simplistic but thats the trend I see.

Commentary was all about how much INEOS improved, but have they??

trig42

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#3298348 17-Oct-2024 08:44

tdgeek:

Disappointing day, but I feel there are positives.

Race 1 we got up on the foils with a 1666m deficit. Dont think they showed the metre gap when INEOS crossed the line but we seemed to gain back 300m or more on average. Given that wind wash was less an issue with that gap, we seem to be quicker

Race 2, lost the start, two small errors (INEOS did have one small error), 6 seconds behind first mark, 7 behind at the finish, so we matched them, despite INEOS had clean air and choice, we didnt.

Annecdotally, if we win the start we win by a few hundred metres, if they win the start they win by a few seconds. Bit simplistic but thats the trend I see.

Commentary was all about how much INEOS improved, but have they??

Sure, they're improving, but it's in tiny increments.

Hopefully, we are too.

I think today was just a write off - they could have won that second start - it was very close to ETNZ blocking INEOS out above the start line but they did really well to counter it.

I'm not sure the ETNZ boat is as good in those choppy waves as Ineos - it looked to me like it wasn't stable and solid like it has the previous four races. Hopefully the wind and sea state align on Saturday morning.

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#3298352 17-Oct-2024 08:52

trig42:

tdgeek:

Disappointing day, but I feel there are positives.

Race 1 we got up on the foils with a 1666m deficit. Dont think they showed the metre gap when INEOS crossed the line but we seemed to gain back 300m or more on average. Given that wind wash was less an issue with that gap, we seem to be quicker

Race 2, lost the start, two small errors (INEOS did have one small error), 6 seconds behind first mark, 7 behind at the finish, so we matched them, despite INEOS had clean air and choice, we didnt.

Annecdotally, if we win the start we win by a few hundred metres, if they win the start they win by a few seconds. Bit simplistic but thats the trend I see.

Commentary was all about how much INEOS improved, but have they??

I'm not sure the ETNZ boat is as good in those choppy waves as Ineos - it looked to me like it wasn't stable and solid like it has the previous four races. Hopefully the wind and sea state align on Saturday morning.

That actually adds weight to my comments. Despite that, we lost 6 seconds on leg 1, and 1 second total on the next 7 legs. On the back foot all the way, yet we only lost 1/7 of a second for each of the last 7 legs on average. Thats pretty outstanding.

Handsomedan

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#3298367 17-Oct-2024 09:53

Nice to see an actual competition brewing. Keeps the neutrals engaged and means that every race has meaning.

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linw

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#3299007 19-Oct-2024 06:23

Wow, races 7&8 won by a Km!!!

One more to go.

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#3299019 19-Oct-2024 07:54

linw:

Wow, races 7&8 won by a Km!!!

One more to go ...

... hopefully. But yes, certainly lookin' good. However I have to remind myself that we lost two in a row a couple of days ago. Cautiously optimistic.

Sometimes I just sit and think. Other times I just sit.

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