Whenuapai airport - Domestic flights

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#2312617 8-Sep-2019 08:43

This report makes interesting reading on the topic : https://infratil.com/assets/Uploads/PDF/whenuapai_waitakere_infratil_iwi.pdf

Just remember it's from 2004 - every few years when it seems Air NZ are in negotiations with AIAL over pricing they roll out the PR machine again. It seems media have grabbed it and run with it this time and it's received a lot more publicity then the multiple times it has made the news since 2004.

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#2312618 8-Sep-2019 08:46

old3eyes:
eracode:
nickb800: Putting aside issues with the airport itself (others here know more than me about the location), it doesn't make sense for the incumbent 'premium' airline to split itself across two locations. It will lose its advantages of an integrated regional/domestic/international network and high frequency domestic trunk routes.

It would make slightly more sense for a low cost carrier like Jetstar to move all of their Auckland international/domestic movements to a second airport. I still don't expect that to happen.

Correct. Unless you’re going to provide a bare-bones, ultra-budget experience, it’s just never going to work.

The cost of developing infrastructure like terminal, checkin, departure lounges, baggage handling systems, air bridges etc would be astronomical compared to the revenue and passenger volumes that would be handled. Not to mention the major rework that’s apparently needed on the runway. And the outcry from North Shore residents living under the flight paths. Just ain’t gonna happen.

Yeah lets just put another runway in at Mangere and let the South Auckland people suffer more after all their wages and house values are less that ours over the shore and we can't have ours devalued by a pesky airport. After all my company pays for my cab fare to the existing airport from the shore.

sarcasm mode off

You can be as sarcastic as you like but it doesn’t change the fact that if the economics don’t add up, it won’t happen.

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#2312737 8-Sep-2019 10:41

Gurezaemon:

Inevitably, that would change the whole vibe of the area, but I suppose progress is necessary. I spent a few years living on-base as a kid in the 70s, and it was a golden time. Safe, and everyone knew everyone else. Myself and a few other kids on our bikes got chased off the runway by the MPs, yelling at us that we were preventing an Orion from landing. Fun times.

i grew up there in the 70's and you are right it was a great time , you could get on to the base just going through the school and you could get from one side to the other through the storm water pipes and keep away from the MP's and they had the best cinema on base were hell broke lose every Saturday afternoon. Fun times alright.

Common sense is not as common as you think.

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#2312752 8-Sep-2019 11:08

Agree with the others about duplicating infrastructure and so on. What hasn't been mentioned is the infrastructure *around* the airport... public transport, car parking, motorway access. Whenuapai is a disaster from this point of view. It would make a lot more sense to invest in a really good public transport system to Mangere.

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#2312755 8-Sep-2019 11:09

Technofreak:
About time there was another domestic airport north of the harbour bridge. I think Whenuapai would work well.

So what you're saying is that splitting air traffic between two airports at opposite ends of the most congested motorway in New Zealand would be a good idea?

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#2312762 8-Sep-2019 11:21

frankv:
Agree with the others about duplicating infrastructure and so on. What hasn't been mentioned is the infrastructure *around* the airport... public transport, car parking, motorway access. Whenuapai is a disaster from this point of view. It would make a lot more sense to invest in a really good public transport system to Mangere.

I agree with your last sentence but Whenuapai is actually reasonably well-supported by nearby motorways - Northwestern and Upper Harbour - with the last couple of k’s from both motorways to the base being currently just country roads. That could be quite easily remedied.

Public transport (buses) could also be stepped-up. Parking would probably not be a big issue - plenty of land around there.

I would think that external physical infrastructure isn’t really a problem - it’s more the on-site plant and equipment, services and infrastructure that would be the cost stumbling-block. Along with consents, RMA, PR and local political issues etc.

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#2312773 8-Sep-2019 11:58

sbiddle:
This report makes interesting reading on the topic : https://infratil.com/assets/Uploads/PDF/whenuapai_waitakere_infratil_iwi.pdf

Just remember it's from 2004 - every few years when it seems Air NZ are in negotiations with AIAL over pricing they roll out the PR machine again. It seems media have grabbed it and run with it this time and it's received a lot more publicity then the multiple times it has made the news since 2004.

If it is true that Luxton is planning a future career in politics "any publicity is good publicity". People just remember the name not necessarily the value of the project.

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#2312875 8-Sep-2019 13:01

eracode:You can be as sarcastic as you like but it doesn’t change the fact that if the economics don’t add up, it won’t happen.

If the economics stack up for the ground infrastructure at airports that have far fewer flights per day than the 20 or so flights per day proposed for Whenuapai then I fail to see how the economics won't add up.

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#2312880 8-Sep-2019 13:14

neb:
Technofreak:

About time there was another domestic airport north of the harbour bridge. I think Whenuapai would work well.

So what you're saying is that splitting air traffic between two airports at opposite ends of the most congested motorway in New Zealand would be a good idea?

I'm not sure I follow your question correctly, but Yes I think it's a good idea. It stands to reason that the passengers going to Whenuapai will not be travelling across the harbour bridge into the city so reducing the traffic on the harbour bridge and the southern motorway network. That has to be a benefit.

Also at peak hours Auckland airport runway is at or above capacity, a reduction in traffic flow would help there too.

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#2312963 8-Sep-2019 13:37

Technofreak:

eracode:You can be as sarcastic as you like but it doesn’t change the fact that if the economics don’t add up, it won’t happen.

If the economics stack up for the ground infrastructure at airports that have far fewer flights per day than the 20 or so flights per day proposed for Whenuapai then I fail to see how the economics won't add up.

Those airports service regional centres where there is no other airport. They’ve been there for decades and have existing long-ago paid-for plant/equipment and services. They don’t have to re-litigate consents and RMA approvals and they’re not facing an outcry from people who are going to live under new flightpaths.

I don’t actually think it’s a bad idea - I’m just saying I very much doubt that it will it come to fruition - too many barriers both economic and social.

You think it’s a great idea and will work. I think it’s a reasonable idea but won’t work. Let’s diarise ahead five years to check and see what’s happened.

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RunningMan

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#2312968 8-Sep-2019 13:54

London, amongst other cities, has more than one airport. It works for them.

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#2312972 8-Sep-2019 14:03

RunningMan:

London, amongst other cities, has more than one airport. It works for them.

Great thinking. They’ve got five international airports. Now why is that? Hmmm.

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Technofreak

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#2312975 8-Sep-2019 14:12

eracode:

Those other airports service regional centres where there is no other airport. Also they’ve been there for decades and have existing long-ago paid-for plant/equipment and services. They don’t have to re-litigate consents and RMA approvals and they’re not facing an outcry from people who are going to live under new flightpaths.

I don’t actually think it’s a bad idea - I’m just saying I very much doubt that it will it come to fruition - too many barriers both economic and social.

You think it’s a great idea and will work. I think it’s a reasonable idea but won’t work. Let’s diarise ahead five years to check and see what’s happened.

Not in all cases have the facilities been there for decades. I can think of at least one which was done from scratch about 10 years ago for two flights per day, one in one out.

I know that the airlines are not necessarily spending the money directly (they will be paying through landing and passenger levies) but the amount of money that's been spent at some smaller regional airports recently on upgraded/new terminals etc would suggest the cost of facilities won't be a show stopper.

I'm not saying it will happen, but I do say it's a good idea and the economics will stack up. The only barrier to this happening will be social/political barriers. Whether or not it happens will depend on these two areas. As I said in another post the noise from the NIMBYS will be the largest obstacle to overcome. Also Auckland airport will do everything in its power to stop it.

It will come to how serious Air New Zealand is about the idea. There is no doubt Air New Zealand have floated this idea as a bargaining chip with respect to AIAL but I believe there is much more merit to this idea than it just being a bargaining chip.

There comes a time when just threatening to do something has to end. When that happens the idea to use Whenuapai for domestic flights will be finished for good or it will proceed. I think that time has arrived. For many reasons I think if it doesn't proceed it will be bad for New Zealand/Auckland in the longer term.

It will be interesting to see what has happened after 5 years.

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#2312978 8-Sep-2019 14:20

@Technofreak

Good answer - we’re really not that far apart in our thinking. You’re more of an optimist and I’m a born cynic. I’m very sceptical about the economics. In the final analysis, overcoming the social barriers has a cost and becomes part of the economics. If the cost is too high, nothing will happen - and we both seem to agree on that.

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#2312980 8-Sep-2019 14:22

eracode:

RunningMan:

London, amongst other cities, has more than one airport. It works for them.

Great thinking. They’ve got five international airports. Now why is that? Hmmm.

Yes population, and that is a good argument as to why two airports are not needed in Auckland.

However there are two very good counter arguments to the population argument.

The geographical layout of Auckland. The fact it is spread out over a long narrow isthmus where all the surface transport has to be funnelled down a narrow corridor.
New Zealand has the highest degree of airline transport per head of population of anywhere in the world. No where else in the developed world has the level of flights between centres that we do here per head of population. There again this is due to our topography, locations of our population centres plus the lack of good rapid surface transport.

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