What is a liquid (LAGs) when flying internationally?

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paulchinnz

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#302298 13-Nov-2022 16:46

I've been looking at https://www.airnewzealand.co.nz/restricted-items in trying to resolve a discrepancy in how my hand carried stuff was treated recently (within past month) on trip to Australia at Auckland Airport.

My a) hair clay/paste was identified as a liquid, whereas the b) deodorant stick and c) lip balm ointment weren't.

Was a) a false positive or were b) and c) false negatives?

Or something I'm missing in reconciling this discrepancy?

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#2995586 13-Nov-2022 17:39

It also depends on the size of the containers.

What were the respective sizes/volumes of the 3 items?

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#2995593 13-Nov-2022 17:56

A few years ago Mrs Code inadvertently checked-in overseas with a 250ml jar of artisanal German mustard in her handbag - was bringing it home as a gift for our son. It got taken off her. This was probably fair enough - the rules say “All liquids, aerosols, gels or pastes …”.

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#2995621 13-Nov-2022 19:56

@kiwiharry all three were 50-100 mL.

Grateful if you can please clarify how size/volume matters (other than I'm aware of the everything goes in 1 L bag, and 100 mL max per item restriction).

I should clarify, and have in my original post now, that these were all hand carried.

empacher48

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#2995646 13-Nov-2022 21:17

The items that weren’t considered LAGS should’ve been treated as such. Don’t worry, having gone through international security screening about 10 times in the last 14 days, they have missed LAGS quite often.

A point that is well known in aviation circles right now is the New Zealand Aviation Security Service (AVSEC) failed their ICAO audit a few months ago due to numerous serious failures. Bad enough that it will have some pretty serious ramifications for NZ from countries that rely on our AVSEC doing their job.

They had their second audit a week to see if they meet requirements a week or so ago, results are pending.

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#2995665 13-Nov-2022 22:30

Thanks @empacher48 yeah I suspected false negatives.

I'm not familiar with ICAO - do you mention them because ability to pick up LAGs is part of their audits?

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#2995745 14-Nov-2022 09:44

paulchinnz:

Thanks @empacher48 yeah I suspected false negatives.

I'm not familiar with ICAO - do you mention them because ability to pick up LAGs is part of their audits?

ICAO or the International Civil Aviation Organisation is a part of the UN which manages the overall standards that international civil aviation works. So they set the standards for things like Air Traffic Control, Training, Accident Investigation, Security requirements, Design of Airways, Design and standards on the construction of airports. Basically every rule we follow in aviation has it basis in ICAO rules and standards.

As part of being of having a civil aviation system in NZ, the Civil Aviation Authority, Airways NZ and Avsec get audited regularly by ICAO so that other countries can be assured that New Zealand is following the rules and the standards here can be relied by other countries.

The audit by ICAO on Avsec found that the airside part of Avsec (security screening and monitoring - the people in black who run the X-rays and metal detectors) didn’t meet the required standard, they have 3 months to make the changes before the follow up audit, which was done last week.

If they fail the second time New Zealand will be blacklisted. Which will mean that other countries can ban any flights from NZ entering their airspace, until the changes are made and we are up to standard.

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paulchinnz

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#2995749 14-Nov-2022 10:01

Thanks @empacher48 whoa that's a big deal.
By the way how strict is the 1L bag rule? I've never seen the Avsec airside staff check dimensions of the bags, but they're certainly keen on the 100 mL rule (sometimes getting confused when the density of a LAG is > 1g/mL and the weight exceeds 100g)

empacher48

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#2995751 14-Nov-2022 10:08

paulchinnz: Thanks @empacher48 whoa that's a big deal.
By the way how strict is the 1L bag rule? I've never seen the Avsec airside staff check dimensions of the bags, but they're certainly keen on the 100 mL rule (sometimes getting confused when the density of a LAG is > 1g/mL and the weight exceeds 100g)

They don’t usually check the size of the bag, but if it’s something that looks excessive they should be checking. But the 100ml or 100g per container is enforced and are very strict on it. If a container doesn’t have a capacity written on it, even if it is less than 100ml or 100g they will dispose of it.

There is a whole lot of new X-ray machines coming that will mean you won’t need to remove laptops, iPads or your LAGs out of your bag, but one of the audit issues is they don’t have enough staff to train people how to use them, so they’re still sitting in a warehouse waiting to be installed, along with body scanners for domestic.

They use those x-ray machines in Melbourne and they work really well. Drop your bag in the machine it goes through, if there are concerns they can look very closely at the X-ray before deciding to open the bag and check. Nine times out of ten my bag doesn’t even get opened.

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#2995756 14-Nov-2022 10:24

Just freeze it, like Florida Woman

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paulchinnz

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#2996125 14-Nov-2022 18:27

Thanks @empacher48

Is the 100g stipulated anywhere e.g. if something is labelled as 60 mL and 120 g on the container, is this in breach of restrictions?

Separately, I've just realised belatedly that what @kiwiharry might have been getting at is that container size is important even if it is empty - but I don't think that's the case given I've been allowed to bring on board an empty 500 mL bottle on several trips (unless all those were false negatives too!).

empacher48

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#2996130 14-Nov-2022 18:36

paulchinnz:
Thanks @empacher48

Is the 100g stipulated anywhere e.g. if something is labelled as 60 mL and 120 g on the container, is this in breach of restrictions?

Separately, I've just realised belatedly that what @kiwiharry might have been getting at is that container size is important even if it is empty - but I don't think that's the case given I've been allowed to bring on board an empty 500 mL bottle on several trips (unless all those were false negatives too!).

If it says 60ml/120g then it’s the volume, however if it’s in gel form and only displays in grams, then less than 100g. I’ve had shaving gel in a 105g tube removed, even when it was half used. I’ve known crew to have toothpaste removed and even a frozen curry (crewmember’s dinner) disposed of.

Empty bottles are ok at any size as long as they are empty. Any fluid in them and they will be disposed of.

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paulchinnz

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#2996131 14-Nov-2022 18:46

You're a font of knowledge about this @empacher48

Yeah it's a hard call for staff to make quick and consistent decisions about the density of X liquid and biffing >100 g in the absence of specified volume is pragmatic. Ditto partially empty containers.

My only other hand carry security question is about why medical tape (from physiotherapist) led to my bag being opened up but maybe that's off topic and deserving of its own thread...

empacher48

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#2996134 14-Nov-2022 18:56

paulchinnz:
You're a font of knowledge about this @empacher48

Yeah it's a hard call for staff to make quick and consistent decisions about the density of X liquid and biffing >100 g in the absence of specified volume is pragmatic. Ditto partially empty containers.

My only other hand carry security question is about why medical tape (from physiotherapist) led to my bag being opened up but maybe that's off topic and deserving of its own thread...

Where I work, I am privy to a lot of briefings by AVSEC to get the information out to others and also be a point of contact for others to ask them.

Usually when they open your bag to look at something, usually it means the person looking at the x-ray image of your bag has seen something that they can’t positively identify, so they’ll open the bag and find what is. I’ve had it done often for batteries for my torch, which are stored in the packet they were bought in. But just the way they are sitting in the bag, may mean it’s hard to see the packet they are in.

Newer scanners are on the way which will minimise these issues. But are still some time away.

paulchinnz

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#2996135 14-Nov-2022 19:03

Thanks

The curious thing about the tape was that the scanner guy knew it was sticky tape but it took a physical inspection of the tape to convince them it was ok for me to bring it on board. I was in a rush and didn't ask why tape was so concerning, and didn't read anything in the AirNZ restricted items page. But now I've come across https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/577408-i-had-duct-tape-confiscated.html so maybe that's what the fuss was about.

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#2996337 15-Nov-2022 00:08

Maybe they were worried you planned on binding someone up in it.

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