Is it time NZ got an aerial fire fighting plane ?

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Goosey

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#309212 29-Sep-2023 06:44

Lots of rain last night but this morning I see the ground is near dry (concrete anyway).

There has been already been a couple wild fires in the past month in the South Island

This morning when digesting my coffee, I thought to myself “hey how come we don’t have an aerial fire fighting aircraft already”?

Seemed we kinda did ages ago (see the link below).

I also discovered an article which suggests an NZ company is trying to develop an autonomous aircraft especially for this purpose…..but there doesn’t seem to be any coverage since that article.

in my view, why can’t we just mount some super super bright LED beam lights on a fixed wing and go light up the night sky when attempting to put out wild fires (using the fixed wing to spread retardant)

hmm, might have to go watch Planes 2 Fire & Rescue again (for quite possibly the 100th time (kid used to love it).

http://frfanz.org.nz/history/aerial_support/

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nz-aviation-tech-company-skybase-develops-pilotless-planes-to-fight-bushfires/BHT6EWRHMBHF7G33V4DHUIA27Q/

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#3136202 29-Sep-2023 07:17

One will probably not be enough. 😉

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johno1234

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#3136204 29-Sep-2023 07:23

Lack of money for an aircraft that would require crew on standby, spare parts, training, maintenance and hangar space yet rarely get used.

Plus we have many helicopters dispersed around the country that can be taken off lifting and agricultural ops and deployed to firefighting.

empacher48

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#3136206 29-Sep-2023 07:48

Around South Canterbury the Ag aircraft were used for fire fighting.

Back in the 2000’s they would land on the straight sections of the hydroelectric canals between Tekapo, Pukaki, Ruataniwha and Benmore, the local firies would pump water into their hoppers and off they go. It was very useful during some fires back then, and cheap because the aircraft were privately owned so they could be called in when needed and not sitting doing nothing but costing money when not.

I think it stopped the day Meridian Energy and Genesis prevented public access to the canal roads, so fire service and aircraft loader access was stopped.

The cost of having dedicated fire bombing aircraft “just in case” would be high, and on a world scale, our fires are not as large as the ones in Aussie, Canada, US or Europe. Some of the fire fronts in Australia can be 30 to 40km long and a fixed wing aircraft makes sense to cover that distance.

Here in NZ, helicopters with Bambi buckets or Monsoon buckets usually can handle it.

MikeB4

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#3136297 29-Sep-2023 09:26

Maybe we should convert our RNZAF C130Hs to fire fighters when the new C130js arrive 2024/25

frankv

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#3136436 29-Sep-2023 11:35

Or maybe the Canadian or US firebombers could come here during their off season?

MikeAqua

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#3136442 29-Sep-2023 11:48

frankv:

Or maybe the Canadian or US firebombers could come here during their off season?

Between NZ and Aus, we should be able to keep them busy.

But perhaps they redeploy to South America duirng Southern summer?

Mike

afe66

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#3136483 29-Sep-2023 12:02

No.
We have a lot of helicopters because of rural work who would be familiar with the local area and they have alternative uses when there are no fires.
Where are the planes going to be based? Need larger bodies of water which helicopters could also use too

MikeAqua

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#3136594 29-Sep-2023 15:20

afe66: No.
We have a lot of helicopters because of rural work who would be familiar with the local area and they have alternative uses when there are no fires.
Where are the planes going to be based? Need larger bodies of water which helicopters could also use too

There are sizeable enough lakes scattered around NZ.

Mike

tweake

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#3136633 29-Sep-2023 16:37

firstly big aircraft typically do not drop water to put out fires. large fires are mostly put out by ground crew. the big aircraft drop retardant to work with the ground crew.

even then its high risk work, so its pointless to use them on small fires that we typically get. specialist small planes are often use as fire attack, but nz has plenty of helicopters that can switch from commercial roles and use a bucket to fight fires with. that saves having a single use aircraft.

the USA planes do come down to aussie after the usa fire season is over. if we really needed one they can just fly one over. but the other issue is having all the other gear and people. eg retardant loading equipment, storage tanks, crew. the lead plane which the big plane follows, the guys who organize it all etc. its not just one plane, its a whole lot of other gear and people that goes with it. its a huge setup.

RunningMan

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#3136637 29-Sep-2023 16:41

NZ topography may be more suited to rotary rather than fixed wing aircraft too. Not so easy to do low level flight in steeply sloping terrain with a fixed wing aircraft.

tweake

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#3136642 29-Sep-2023 16:54

btw the blancolirio utube channel covers a fair bit of it.

https://www.youtube.com/@blancolirio

Handle9

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#3136664 29-Sep-2023 17:53

MikeB4: Maybe we should convert our RNZAF C130Hs to fire fighters when the new C130js arrive 2024/25

They are 60 year old aircraft. They are more likely to be part of the fire than part of the solution.

cokemaster

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#3136706 29-Sep-2023 20:48

The 757's could be an option... if they get off the ground :P

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Scott3

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#3136734 29-Sep-2023 23:19

In general wildfires seem to be increasing in frequency, so it would make sense for NZ to scale up it's capability.

My understanding is that rural fire has long been the poor cousin to their urban counterparts when it comes to equipment, (not that the urban centers don't have issues with stuff like old / unreliable ladder units). So expensive aerial firefighting planes are going to be challenging to fund.

That said, I understand a bunch of flash new 4x4 rural fire trucks have been delivered over the last few years. (at about NZ$340k each)

One of the below planes (5,300L capacity), runs at about USD30m (about NZD50m).

How the $30 Million 'Super Scooper' Plane Was Built to Fight Wildfires

Even for a single plane, that is a pretty massive opportunity cost. Could buy over 1500 modern 4x4 rural fire pump /tank trucks. like the below:

The Fire and Emergency New Zealand rural pump truck before it crashed. Photo / Fire and Emergency NZ

Or we could look at some of the super flash gear aussie has got in the last while:

Unimog:
Forest Fire Management Victoria (FFMV) Unimog I got a photo of during the 2019/2020 fires in Vic, Australia : r/AussieFirefighter

Ultra Light (G Class):

Scott3

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#3136735 29-Sep-2023 23:39

The perk of having something stationed here (if we could justify the cost), vs relying on something from overseas is quick response time. Being able to attack the fire just hours after discovery.

MikeB4: Maybe we should convert our RNZAF C130Hs to fire fighters when the new C130js arrive 2024/25

The C130H's are very, and are likely getting uneconomic to keep maintained to an airworthy standard.

But there could be an opportunity for our new C130j's to add firefighting to their capabilities via a Modular Airborne FireFighting System kit that can simply be loaded into the plane when needed. (11400L):

Note this lacks scooping ability, so cycle time is long compared to the plane I posted a picture in an above post.

Also note these operations are high risk, one such configured plane crashed in 2012 killing 4.

cokemaster:

The 757's could be an option... if they get off the ground :P

We would be putting a heap of money into a custom fire fighting setup, in a plane that is pretty much obsolete. (and it would lack scoping ability).

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