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kingdragonfly

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#315739 11-Aug-2024 15:43
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Early article and video

Air NZ has 29 of the ATR72-600, versus the model 500 that crashed in Brazil. The difference is 5% more power in 600, and better avionics.

Still ATR72 have a bad reputation for icing.

New York Times: What Caused a Plane to Fall From the Sky in Brazil?

Brazilian investigators on Saturday began analyzing the black boxes from a São Paulo-bound flight to try to understand why the passenger plane fell from 17,000 feet on Friday, in a crash that killed all 62 on board.

But to aviation experts around the world who watched the videos showing the 89-foot plane spinning slowly as it plummeted before crashing almost directly on its belly, the question of what had happened was simple to answer: The plane had stalled.

In other words, the plane’s wings had lost the lift needed to keep the aircraft aloft, causing it to stop flying and start falling.
...
The leading crash theory so far is that the plane may have stalled partly because it suffered from severe icing, meaning ice formed on its wings or on other parts of the plane, reducing its aerodynamic abilities and increasing its weight. With such icing, a plane has to travel at faster speeds to avoid stalling, experts said.

“The way the aircraft fell, spinning out of control, is characteristic of someone who lost the functionality of the wing and the aircraft controls,” said Celso Faria de Souza, a Brazilian aeronautical engineer and forensic expert in plane crashes. “This can happen because of ice.”
...
ATR-72 Loss of Control Sao Paulo Brazil

9 Aug 2024


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empacher48
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  #3270622 11-Aug-2024 16:48
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I flew the ATR for about 14 years.it really didn’t have any vices in icing conditions.

Yes there was the Roselawn incident, but at the time those pilots did something that was expressly prohibited in the flight manual (holding in icing conditions with flap 15, it was prohibited then and is still prohibited now).

After that accident there were modifications and the test aircraft flew hundreds of hours behind a water tanker spraying supercooled water droplets all over it. ATR gathered more information about the way the aircraft handles icing conditions than any other aircraft in the air right now. The flight testing was so rigorous that the procedures for flying in icing conditions were so well understood by ATR and then developed into some very good training and procedures for every ATR pilot to understand.

As for severe icing. No aircraft ever built is designed to fly into severe icing, it’s why it is severe because no matter what anti or de-icing system your aircraft has, severe icing means the ice is forming faster than you can get rid of it. The only option in severe ice is to escape. As an ATR pilot you are trained to be more aware of icing conditions and escape it.

As for this incident in Brazil, we are less than 24 hours after the accident, they haven’t even download the CVR or DFDR yet. There are many many things that could’ve caused this event to happen. To jump onto a conclusion right now is just dumb.

 
 
 

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alasta
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  #3270652 11-Aug-2024 19:14
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ATRs are very widely used across the world and, as far as I know, the last icing related incident was Aero Caribbean Flight 883 back in 2010. 

 

Lots of things can lead to an aerodynamic stall, so I wouldn't jump to conclusions. 


freitasm
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  #3270657 11-Aug-2024 19:45
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Interesting read https://philip.greenspun.com/blog/2024/08/10/the-spinning-atr-crash-in-brazil/




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tweake
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  #3270660 11-Aug-2024 19:51
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there will be multiple things that have gone wrong. but its going to be a while before we hear back about it.


Eva888
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  #3270715 12-Aug-2024 08:57
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It was miraculous how it fell square into a yard surrounded by the houses and didn’t hurt anyone on the ground. Sad there were 8 cancer doctors that died. What a sad loss of specialised talent. 

 

Flying into Wellington in a bad Southerly will be even more nerve wracking after that video has etched into the mind.


rb99
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  #3270735 12-Aug-2024 10:02
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I know its speculation, and we won't have a definitive answer till next year (maybe ?), but this is also quite interesting -

 

https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/crews-late-escape-from-icing-preceded-serious-atr-72-upset/140138.article

 

Also, I found it, well, disgusting that the news on One at 6pm thought the news that someone managed to kayak from one bit of river to another bit of river faster than anyone else in some kind of competition in France was considered the lead story, followed by news of this crash. I can only imagine the blanket coverage if it was indeed an AirNZ ATR72 crash.





“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” -John Kenneth Galbraith

 

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eracode
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  #3270738 12-Aug-2024 10:17
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rb99:

 

Also, I found it, well, disgusting that the news on One at 6pm thought the news that someone managed to kayak from one bit of river to another bit of river faster than anyone else in some kind of competition in France was considered the lead story, followed by news of this crash. I can only imagine the blanket coverage if it was indeed an AirNZ ATR72 crash.

 

 

That’s a pretty tough call - perhaps from someone who is very interested in aviation but maybe not so much in sport? The crash was in Brazil. As you say, it would be a totally different story if the crash was in NZ.

 

Planes crash reasonably regularly. The thing that made this one different for TV were the videos of it falling in a flat spin - without that, it would have been 15 seconds buried in the news.





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alasta
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  #3270745 12-Aug-2024 10:46
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eracode:

 

Planes crash reasonably regularly. 

 

 

Not any more. Major aviation disasters were routine in the 70s and 80s but have gradually become very rare over the last few decades. I'm struggling to think of the last one that occurred in the developed world, but I'm guessing it was probably Air France 447 which was 15 years ago. 

 

Back on topic, it's interesting that Flight Radar appears to show this particular aircraft's speed dropping below 100kt at high altitude a couple of times prior to the unrecoverable stall. So whatever happened wasn't sudden. 


eracode
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  #3270750 12-Aug-2024 11:01
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alasta:

 

Not any more. Major aviation disasters were routine in the 70s and 80s but have gradually become very rare over the last few decades. I'm struggling to think of the last one that occurred in the developed world, but I'm guessing it was probably Air France 447 which was 15 years ago. 

 

 

I don’t think that’s right - and I did say ‘crash’ not ‘major aviation disasters’.

 

There’s a table of crash dates here and looking at recent years there are many crashes with significant loss of life.





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vexxxboy
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  #3270810 12-Aug-2024 11:52
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Eva888:

 

It was miraculous how it fell square into a yard surrounded by the houses and didn’t hurt anyone on the ground. Sad there were 8 cancer doctors that died. What a sad loss of specialised talent. 

 

Flying into Wellington in a bad Southerly will be even more nerve wracking after that video has etched into the mind.

 

 

My son is flying for the first time this weekend into Wellington and he is convinced planes are dangerous, after looking at the weather this weekend with NE winds on Friday at 40 50 km and strong SE on Sunday when he flies out i am not sure he will be convinced otherwise





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Scott3
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  #3270818 12-Aug-2024 12:01
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rb99:

 

....

 

Also, I found it, well, disgusting that the news on One at 6pm thought the news that someone managed to kayak from one bit of river to another bit of river faster than anyone else in some kind of competition in France was considered the lead story, followed by news of this crash. I can only imagine the blanket coverage if it was indeed an AirNZ ATR72 crash.

 



I think this is quite harsh.

It is quite reasonable that NZ news organization focuses on stories with a NZ angle.

Also that event in France is Kinda a big deal in the sporting world, and I assume (didn't watch), the story was about a certain kayaker, who now has 8 golds, (same as Usain Bolt, one more than Simon Biles).


As per the other comment, the ample video footage, it likely the only thing that made this story Worthey of the second spot. Without that is is just a prop plane crash in a third world country. (our media does really focus on the western world for it's international stories)

Absolutely there would have been massive coverage if it was an AirNZ plane, as that means there would have been a local angle to the story.


Rikkitic
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  #3270842 12-Aug-2024 12:55
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Sports have a valid place and I am all for that, but they don't belong on the main news. There is a separate sports news section after and that is where the sports news should be. Someone running a fraction of a second faster than someone else can in no way be compared to children slaughtered in Gaza or Russians murdering Ukrainians. 

 

 

 

 





Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

 


 


rb99
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  #3270845 12-Aug-2024 13:12
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It is true to say I've never been interested in sports while I did / do have a private pilots licence...but still, I think the crash was somewhat more important. I think parochial is the word.





“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” -John Kenneth Galbraith

 

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robjg63
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  #3270884 12-Aug-2024 17:16
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vexxxboy:

 

Eva888:

 

It was miraculous how it fell square into a yard surrounded by the houses and didn’t hurt anyone on the ground. Sad there were 8 cancer doctors that died. What a sad loss of specialised talent. 

 

Flying into Wellington in a bad Southerly will be even more nerve wracking after that video has etched into the mind.

 

 

My son is flying for the first time this weekend into Wellington and he is convinced planes are dangerous, after looking at the weather this weekend with NE winds on Friday at 40 50 km and strong SE on Sunday when he flies out i am not sure he will be convinced otherwise

 

 

Hope no-one tells him of the dangers of car travel!





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cshwone
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  #3270905 12-Aug-2024 19:21
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Scott3:

 

Without that is is just a prop plane crash in a third world country.

 

 

I would hardly describe Brazil as a third world country!


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