New Zealand elections 2020

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#2609953 24-Nov-2020 19:11

GV27:

I would probably equate Labour's 2017 campaign manifesto with political bait and switch, which is not acceptable when companies do it - so I fail to see why it should be acceptable when parties make hugely unrealistic promises to get elected. I get that, and I understand it.

Having said that, that is quite different to what National did. They said something that was flat out not correct. In a perfect world, it would be equally as abhorrent but this is an ASA finding that falls within their remit. Frankly it is almost the least of National's problems in their 2020 campaign - which is just sad tbh.

I get that. Labour made promises, KiwiBuild is the obvious one. Was Kiwibuild a bad idea? No. Was it achievable? No. Why wasn't it? Or labour could have campaigned on no promises, just hearsay. Better to try and fail than not try at all. What we have learned is that a market driven economy doesnt work when you are tiny and rocked around by the rest of the globe, i.e .07% of the population.

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#2609956 24-Nov-2020 19:17

Rikkitic:

Me man! Big strong man! Got big member! Ugh!

He has weight. Unlike NZ, Australia has stuff China wants. Australia is a US cousin. If China punches Morrison, he has US Mike Tyson punching back, so Morrison can play hard ball, NZ can't. Our best option is to say no thats not great, then shut up while the big boys face off. One day this will equalise and settle down once China pushes its weight and western countries push back. We are small enough and smart enough not to get into that fight.

Handle9

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#2610123 25-Nov-2020 04:24

networkn:

Rikkitic:

More misleading campaign ads from National. They are in good company. Complaints were also upheld over ads by Billy Te Kahika and Jami-Lee Ross’s Advance NZ party and the Social Credit Party.

If National has so few policies to campaign on that they have to resort to deception to attract voters, maybe they shouldn't bother at all. Who wants to vote for a party that lies to people? We might as well be in the USA.

I think parties who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. If you compare campaign promise sizes and vs what was delivered you'd find yourself in Trump territory pretty quick.

You're confusing incompetence with cynical lying. Neither is acceptable but the cynical lies are arguably worse.

Handle9

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#2610124 25-Nov-2020 04:31

GV27:

I would probably equate Labour's 2017 campaign manifesto with political bait and switch, which is not acceptable when companies do it - so I fail to see why it should be acceptable when parties make hugely unrealistic promises to get elected. I get that, and I understand it.

Having said that, that is quite different to what National did. They said something that was flat out not correct. In a perfect world, it would be equally as abhorrent but this is an ASA finding that falls within their remit. Frankly it is almost the least of National's problems in their 2020 campaign - which is just sad tbh.

I don't think it's bait and switch. Incompetence for sure but not bait and switch.

GV27

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#2610150 25-Nov-2020 07:46

Handle9:

I don't think it's bait and switch. Incompetence for sure but not bait and switch.

The specific bit I would say was bait and switch was the pricing on the Kiwibuild houses (lifted by $50K across the board) after they insisted was absolutely doable in 2017 and there was no reason why their costings from 2014 weren't still relevant. They'd also campaigned on building supply reform amidst escalating construction costs.

The rest I can put down to incompetence but not that bit.

MikeAqua

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#2610363 25-Nov-2020 12:18

Rikkitic:

Me man! Big strong man! Got big member! Ugh!

Enormous actually 🤣, but that's irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Which is that history has shown: -

- If you don't stand up to malevolent states, you embolden them "I hold in my hand, a piece of paper";

- A coalition of democracies can take down one or more malevolent state;

China, with the CCP at the helm is most definitely a malevolent state, domestically and internationally.

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Rikkitic

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#2610430 25-Nov-2020 12:32

MikeAqua:

Enormous actually 🤣, but that's irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Which is that history has shown: -

- If you don't stand up to malevolent states, you embolden them "I hold in my hand, a piece of paper";

- A coalition of democracies can take down one or more malevolent state;

China, with the CCP at the helm is most definitely a malevolent state, domestically and internationally.

You can thump your hairy chest all you like, but your Neanderthal posturing is just more of the same old same old pale male aggressive shirtfronting mine is bigger than yours confrontational BS. I suppose it takes a female leader to dare to try something different, which you, dazzled by your enormous member, misinterpret as feminine weakness since you are convinced in the depths of your primitive soul that women are the lesser sex, just waiting to be dragged off to some superior male's cave.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

MikeAqua

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#2610456 25-Nov-2020 13:08

Rikkitic:

You can thump your hairy chest all you like, but your Neanderthal posturing is just more of the same old same old pale male aggressive shirtfronting mine is bigger than yours confrontational BS. I suppose it takes a female leader to dare to try something different, which you, dazzled by your enormous member, misinterpret as feminine weakness since you are convinced in the depths of your primitive soul that women are the lesser sex, just waiting to be dragged off to some superior male's cave.

Nothing to do with Ardern's sex. Lange was weak (male) Thatcher (female) was strong (ask Argentina). The world has had some great female leaders - we still have at least one that I know of in Angela Merkel.

Ardern isn't trying anything new. Chamberlain (male with Umbrella) tried weakness last century. Didn't work so well.

It's not chest thumping it's a rationale viewpoint.

And I don't have a soul - there is no such thing.

Also you accuse me of being sexist but your post is 90% sexism. Your post radiates misandry.

Mike

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#2610555 25-Nov-2020 14:29

MikeAqua:

Your post radiates misandry.

Just restoring the cosmic balance. But apart from all that, I do not see Jacinda Ardern's response as a sign of weakness at all. It is much more a sign of intelligent diplomacy when dealing with a far more powerful opponent. The Chinese do not respond well to brash confrontation. They like to be respected. They play a long game that values subtlety and nuance. A little dog yapping at their heels isn't going to change anything. Apart from the futility of threatening the Chinese with anything, New Zealand cannot realistically be compared to the United Kingdom, Germany, or any other country with far more resources than we have. I think you are promoting a very hackneyed and outdated approach to international relations that requires something more than a member-measuring contest.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

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#2610574 25-Nov-2020 14:51

Doesn't matter what you do with China. Either way they will do what they want. You can say nothing and make some money or say something and not make any at all.

Find it strange left-wing people want to go with the say nothing and make money approach.

Fred99

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#2611324 26-Nov-2020 18:15

Jas777:

Find it strange left-wing people want to go with the say nothing and make money approach.

I find it strange that hawkish / dovish could be confused as being synonymous with with "left / right".

For all the 4+ years of blather and threats from the US administration WRT US China trade imbalance, it achieved less than nothing. The Chinese trade surplus with USA has increased.

MikeAqua:

If the West conspired against China, with a bit of help form India, China would be in deep economic trouble. The CCP would be toast and the world would be a better place.

If you want to "shame" China for (domestic) human rights abuses, you really don't want Modi on your side. China will laugh at you.

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GV27

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#2611507 27-Nov-2020 06:53

Fred99:

I find it strange that hawkish / dovish could be confused as being synonymous with with "left / right".

For all the 4+ years of blather and threats from the US administration WRT US China trade imbalance, it achieved less than nothing. The Chinese trade surplus with USA has increased.

It did rob the world of some fairly rapid advances in phone camera technology though, which is the real tragedy (you know, other than the genocide and poverty and job losses at stuff).