Ukraine War discussion

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3419 posts

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#2966597 13-Sep-2022 12:37

shk292:

I just found this gem on Politico:

Johannes Varwick, a German political scientist who has been pouring cold water on Ukraine’s prospects across the country’s media for months, went even darker.

“Unpopular opinion,” he wrote on Twitter. “In my view, the reports of Ukrainian military success don’t change the big picture: Russia (unfortunately) has escalation dominance and in the medium term higher stamina. There is no alternative to a political reconciliation of interests.”

Ukraine’s ambassador to Germany Andrij Melnyk offered his own frank assessment in response: “Unpopular opinion: F*** off.”

Is Germany going to be on the wrong side of history again?

If you mean 'a' or 'this' German, yes.

If you mean Germany, no.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

shk292

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#2966617 13-Sep-2022 13:33

elpenguino:

If you mean 'a' or 'this' German, yes.

If you mean Germany, no.

Good point. But their Foreign Minister and Defence Minister are being quite unhelpful also. It will be interesting to see if they do anything more useful to help Ukraine

kingdragonfly

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#2966618 13-Sep-2022 13:35

Gurezaemon:
Wow. Well-known pundits openly discussing on Russian TV that they may have got it wrong...

I can't Russian commentators still trying to paint the conflict as fighting "Zelensky Nazi regime." He was born to Jewish parents. Granted there have been African American KKK members, so a Jewish Nazi is possible; just highly unlikely.

Jewish Unpacked: Who is Volodymyr Zelensky, the Jewish president of Ukraine?

Let's be clear about this: Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky is Jewish and has zero ties to any neo-Nazi movement.
...

tdgeek

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#2966622 13-Sep-2022 13:49

kingdragonfly:
Gurezaemon:

Wow. Well-known pundits openly discussing on Russian TV that they may have got it wrong...

I can't Russian commentators still trying to paint the conflict as fighting "Zelensky Nazi regime." He was born to Jewish parents. Granted there have been African American KKK members, so a Jewish Nazi is possible; just highly unlikely.

Jewish Unpacked: Who is Volodymyr Zelensky, the Jewish president of Ukraine?

Let's be clear about this: Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky is Jewish and has zero ties to any neo-Nazi movement.
...

Yep, Its subterfuge. His only reason is to get back his precious USSR. The race, creed or anything about the UKR leader is no matter

Tinkerisk

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#2966625 13-Sep-2022 14:03

shk292:

elpenguino:

If you mean 'a' or 'this' German, yes.

If you mean Germany, no.

Good point. But their Foreign Minister and Defence Minister are being quite unhelpful also. It will be interesting to see if they do anything more useful to help Ukraine

You didn't really understand about the coordination within the NATO partners, did you?

And why Germany of all countries? Are we now some kind of world police and world saviour for armed conflicts of all kinds? As I said, it's easy to make military recommendations from a safe distance as a hobbit. Just as there are reasons to do something, there are reasons not to do something - you have to be able to live with that.

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wellygary

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#2966629 13-Sep-2022 14:25

kingdragonfly:

Let's be clear about this: Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky is Jewish and has zero ties to any neo-Nazi movement.
...

No, but the last major enemy that Russia defeated was the Nazis.....

Its simply Putin finding a label to stick on Ukraine that stirs patriotism in "Mother Russia" and reinforces the state line of "its up to us again"

itxtme

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#2966631 13-Sep-2022 14:33

Tinkerisk:

You didn't really understand about the coordination within the NATO partners, did you?

And why Germany of all countries? Are we now some kind of world police and world saviour for armed conflicts of all kinds? As I said, it's easy to make military recommendations from a safe distance as a hobbit. Just as there are reasons to do something, there are reasons not to do something - you have to be able to live with that.

Not sure you want to go this route, its pretty widely accepted that Germany has been slow to react given their position in Europe. Their military spending aid is 4th at 1.2 billion, behind Poland, UK and US. Perspective wise Poland has spent 1.8 billion and has a GDP 0.594 trillion vs Germanys 3.806 trillion. Having said that the narrative on Germany has been heavy handed especially given other big players like Italy and France have done a lot less despite being big players too. Equally the limited weapons that have been provided have been essential to Ukraine, with the Gepards being particularly useful in the latest offensive.

So why should Germany and other European countries do more? Mainly because Ukraine is in Europe, and so are you. But also because you buy energy from Putin in such large amounts, that you fund this ongoing invasion. Personally I feel that there has been bigger and better movement from Germany in the last two to three months than before that, but still plenty that can be done. When the G7 limit oil prices, and maybe when Germany gets onboard with limiting gas prices the world will look more favourably toward the German response.

Tinkerisk

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#2966682 13-Sep-2022 14:50

Oh no, not again from the beginning.

It fits exactly into the picture of the times that the concrete admission of 1,008,635 (until 9 September 2022, and that out of 3.3 million only the Ukrainian ones) does not count for the stupid mass media and that they only talk about weapons that we have developed and built ourselves. We will send you the bill for the accommodation and care of these refugees, ok? You pay for it out of your taxes, because you can just do it humanely for a change, besides getting rid of military equipment packed in boxes and that's it, right?

itxtme

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#2966685 13-Sep-2022 15:17

Good on Germany for doing this, and nobody would dispute this was a good approach. What will stop this illegal invasion though? And why do you ignore what I have said about Gas (and oil, but to a lesser extent)? How does Putin pay for this war?

Also again I would like you to reread what I said, because I did not say Germany does nothing, in fact I said other countries were doing worst. But Germany is a world leader, and so they should act like it. More weapons, better weapons - end the war.

(no refugees for you to pay out of your taxes)

Edit: We could talk about Nord stream 2 after the illegal annexation of Crimea, but I think we can all accept, the behaviour of other countries as well as Germany to do business when that occurred was a mistake.

Tinkerisk

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#2966705 13-Sep-2022 15:43

Ukraine is not a member of the EU, not a member of NATO and geographically belongs to Europe.

Germany is not a world leader, we don't even have voting rights at the UN. We are always called world leaders when it comes to paying for damage caused by others. Germany has no weapons that others do not have - especially no nuclear weapons. It's not our job to end another country's war against another country faster - that's the job of the UN. It's frightening how bad general education is these days and has been replaced by Facebook likes/dislikes.

As far as energy is concerned, consumption has long since been reduced, which takes time. We prepare ourselves for tough conditions in winter. How about the world helping out Germany for once and not making populist Sunday speeches without being familiar with the facts? Well, how about we spend the winter with you for free in the summer?

neb

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#2966710 13-Sep-2022 15:53

kingdragonfly: I can't Russian commentators still trying to paint the conflict as fighting "Zelensky Nazi regime."

Russian commentators with (metaphorical) guns held to their heads. They have to phrase their criticism of the regime in exactly the right terms or spend the rest of their lives carefully avoiding non-ground-floor windows.

Tinkerisk

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#2966713 13-Sep-2022 15:57

neb:
kingdragonfly: I can't Russian commentators still trying to paint the conflict as fighting "Zelensky Nazi regime."
Russian commentators with (metaphorical) guns held to their heads. They have to phrase their criticism of the regime in exactly the right terms or spend the rest of their lives carefully avoiding non-ground-floor windows.

Exactly - they are called Potemkin villages. Thinking about how easy it is to manipulate crowds these days makes me sick.

kingdragonfly

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#2966818 13-Sep-2022 18:46

itxtme: ...the limited weapons that have been provided [by NATO] have been essential to Ukraine, with the Gepards being particularly useful in the latest offensive.

So why should Germany and other European countries do more?...

You forgot to mention that this week Russia has been the largest provider of military equipment to Ukrainian forces

Maybe Russian soldiers should use the Adidas logos instead of the "Z", because they sure can run like Olympic track stars.

neb

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#2966820 13-Sep-2022 18:47

kingdragonfly: Maybe Russian soldiers should use the Adidas logos instead of the "Z", because they sure can run like Olympic track stars.

Then it'll look like Ukraine has been invaded by a horde of gopniks.

Oh, wait...

shk292

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#2966848 13-Sep-2022 20:26

Tinkerisk:

You didn't really understand about the coordination within the NATO partners, did you?

Yes I do, thanks. 39 years of military service, 22 of them in NATO. I keep in touch with what's going on and it's plain that Germany and France have been found wanting in their support for the international rule of law in this case.

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