Christopher Luxon, New Zealand Prime Minister 2023

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Forums › Politics › Christopher Luxon, New Zealand Prime Minister 2023

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#3242314 29-May-2024 14:34

GV27:

It's perverse how this narrative that the government is entitled to your earnings by default

The government is not entitled to your earnings by default. The government is entitled to your earnings because you live in the stable democratic society that the government provides.

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#3242319 29-May-2024 14:47

SJB:

In several decades of budgets in two different countries with governments of varying colors I've never noticed them making any material difference to me.

Yeah, the only thing that ever did was the introduction of the Clean Car Scheme. It is literally the only government "handout" I have ever received in my life.

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#3242478 30-May-2024 06:32

GV27:

tdgeek:

Seems that the squeezed middle getting a small number of free dollars matters more

Not having your taxes increased year after year by stealth isn't 'free money'. The one who has been getting 'free money' is the government.

It's perverse how this narrative that the government is entitled to your earnings by default gets put forward when letting people keep the same amount that they've earned relative to inflation isn't even a 'tax cut'.

It's just not a tax increase.

I dont disagree, but where do you draw the line? The July tax cuts are tiny. If you qualify with kids and get a decent chunk I have no issue with that, I favour that. Singles get didly squat. Higher income earners get didly squat relatively and they dont need it, that's wasted. Helping the squeezed middle is fake news. Helping the votes is accurate news. Threshholds will change 2026 if financial conditions allow it, so that wont happen, which was your point

End of the day NZ is tiny, half the population of greater Los Angeles. Even though the Govt gets "free money" NZ is still hamstrung due to a low population. We have no economic scale for taxes and infrastructure and health education, etc. If you assist one of those, you cut back the others, which is what we are seeing. Now if the tax cuts were a boon to income earners, ok that helps, but they aren't.

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#3242532 30-May-2024 07:06

SaltyNZ:

SJB:

In several decades of budgets in two different countries with governments of varying colors I've never noticed them making any material difference to me.

Yeah, the only thing that ever did was the introduction of the Clean Car Scheme. It is literally the only government "handout" I have ever received in my life.

And health, and education....

GV27

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#3242554 30-May-2024 08:57

SaltyNZ:

The government is not entitled to your earnings by default. The government is entitled to your earnings because you live in the stable democratic society that the government provides.

The government is obligated to provide those things, it's the social contract that underpins the whole notion of tax in the first place. If they collect more and more and provide less and less, what happens then? That's the situation we're in now. Forgive us if 'just collect more tax, that oughta do it!' and trusting the same people who got us into this mess isn't a super appealling prospect.

How many people do you think would be happy paying the kind of taxes we pay now if they knew they weren't going to be able to draw a pension when they retire? These things matter. And your tax-paying populace have their own cost increases that they need to cover as well - which is easier to swallow in a low-inflation environment, but we don't have that either.

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#3242555 30-May-2024 08:57

sir1963:

And health, and education....

Fortunately even the harder right wing in New Zealand don't generally classify health and education as "handouts".

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#3242559 30-May-2024 09:01

GV27:

SaltyNZ:

The government is not entitled to your earnings by default. The government is entitled to your earnings because you live in the stable democratic society that the government provides.

The government is obligated to provide those things, it's the social contract that underpins the whole notion of tax in the first place. If they collect more and more and provide less and less, what happens then? That's the situation we're in now. Forgive us if 'just collect more tax, that oughta do it!' and trusting the same people who got us into this mess isn't a super appealling prospect.

How many people do you think would be happy paying the kind of taxes we pay now if they knew they weren't going to be able to draw a pension when they retire? These things matter. And your tax-paying populace have their own cost increases that they need to cover as well - which is easier to swallow in a low-inflation environment, but we don't have that either.

I take no issue with the core idea that the government should be using our money wisely, and that that will necessarily imply that sometimes cuts should be made because services are not delivering value worth their cost.

This government is not doing that. Source: "line by line" / blindsided by the suicide office to be closed, disability services, immediately rehiring a bunch of people from MoE as contractors at twice the price, tax cuts for landlords funded by borrowing ...

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#3242564 30-May-2024 09:16

SaltyNZ:

sir1963:

And health, and education....

Fortunately even the harder right wing in New Zealand don't generally classify health and education as "handouts".

It all comes from the same pocket in the end.

But do check out the ideology behind Charter Schools.

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#3242617 30-May-2024 09:34

sir1963:

It all comes from the same pocket in the end.

But do check out the ideology behind Charter Schools.

I was this close to writing "Only the ACT Party" instead, but decided to be less partisan. :-)

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#3242622 30-May-2024 09:42

SaltyNZ:

I was this close to writing "Only the ACT Party" instead, but decided to be less partisan. :-)

Supported by National and NZF...?

Oh and a lot of christian extremists ...

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#3242626 30-May-2024 09:48

sir1963:

Supported by National and NZF...?

Oh and a lot of christian extremists ...

They have to take responsibility too of course. Oh, to get a live stream of Chris Luxon's inner monologue ...

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#3242627 30-May-2024 09:54

SaltyNZ:

I take no issue with the core idea that the government should be using our money wisely, and that that will necessarily imply that sometimes cuts should be made because services are not delivering value worth their cost.

This government is not doing that. Source: "line by line" / blindsided by the suicide office to be closed, disability services, immediately rehiring a bunch of people from MoE as contractors at twice the price, tax cuts for landlords funded by borrowing ...

If the government is spending more than it is receiving, everything is arguably 'funded by borrowing'. I could make this argument about the hundreds of millions of dollars wasted centralising the non-university tertiary sector while the universities cut staff and closed whole departments we saw under the last government.

All the current government has done is exactly what Robertson did in the lead-up to the 2023 election, which is instruct departments to find cuts they could make. I don't recall the same level of existential angst over that. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell me that it was 'prudent and smart stewardship' when he did it. But it's extremely bad now.

GV27

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#3242628 30-May-2024 09:56

tdgeek:

End of the day NZ is tiny, half the population of greater Los Angeles. Even though the Govt gets "free money" NZ is still hamstrung due to a low population. We have no economic scale for taxes and infrastructure and health education, etc. If you assist one of those, you cut back the others, which is what we are seeing. Now if the tax cuts were a boon to income earners, ok that helps, but they aren't.

Increasing the tax thresholds each year would mean you never get huge one-off cuts, but the governments of the day don't get to dip into a grab bag of excuses for 14 years while they tell the electorate their costs are going up, but you're going to be taxed as if yours are still the same as they were in 2010.

If anything, the fact we can't afford to do a massive one-off alignment is proof that the decision needs to be taken out of politicians' hands.

sir1963

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#3242629 30-May-2024 09:57

SaltyNZ:

sir1963:

Supported by National and NZF...?

Oh and a lot of christian extremists ...

They have to take responsibility too of course. Oh, to get a live stream of Chris Luxon's inner monologue ...

Interesting enough, party of Luxons monologue includes removing charity / tax free status from churches.

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#3242631 30-May-2024 10:01

GV27:

I don't recall the same level of existential angst over that.

The Labour Party did not make it a campaign point that they would be going through department budgets line by line.

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