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dejadeadnz
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  #2514178 29-Jun-2020 00:04
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My own view of Ardern is that she's mostly a female version of John Key. Excellent at mood reading/communicating sufficiently well to get votes, smiling for the camera, and probably reasonably intelligent. But neither of them have any great vision, easily surrender to real politik, and saturates the airwaves with glib one-liners that lack any substance (e.g. "Be kind!"). The one thing she seems to have over John Key is that she doesn't have the obvious trace of sociopathy that Key's background makes abundantly clear. Their lack of any unifying vision (caused partly by their unwillingness to challenged entrenched interests/notions that debilitate their ability to execute) sometimes have also proven to be their strengths: they've at least by and large left the bureaucrats to do their jobs when things really matter. Mostly both are reasonably steady hands that haven't rocked the boat or allowed things to get disastrously bad. But neither achieved/will achieve a lot of their explicitly/implicitly stated goals e.g. Key's stated goals for NZ to catch up with Aus' standard of living.

 

They are your classic 6.5/10 performers.

 

 

 

 




Handle9
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  #2514185 29-Jun-2020 01:09
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dejadeadnz:

 

My own view of Ardern is that she's mostly a female version of John Key. Excellent at mood reading/communicating sufficiently well to get votes, smiling for the camera, and probably reasonably intelligent. But neither of them have any great vision, easily surrender to real politik, and saturates the airwaves with glib one-liners that lack any substance (e.g. "Be kind!"). The one thing she seems to have over John Key is that she doesn't have the obvious trace of sociopathy that Key's background makes abundantly clear. Their lack of any unifying vision (caused partly by their unwillingness to challenged entrenched interests/notions that debilitate their ability to execute) sometimes have also proven to be their strengths: they've at least by and large left the bureaucrats to do their jobs when things really matter. Mostly both are reasonably steady hands that haven't rocked the boat or allowed things to get disastrously bad. But neither achieved/will achieve a lot of their explicitly/implicitly stated goals e.g. Key's stated goals for NZ to catch up with Aus' standard of living.

 

They are your classic 6.5/10 performers.

 

 

Yeah, I largely agree. Key and Ardern both seem mostly concerned with being personally popular and winning elections, not making any significant difference.

 

You of course skipped the part that neither were/are responsible for anything bad, only the good stuff. Key was the master of making "operational" matters an issue for the bueracracy, not the politicians. Ardern has followed this playbook very well.


On2or3wheels
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  #2515534 1-Jul-2020 09:58
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I meet some migrant workers recently while on a road trip. They were from countries that I knew had provided repatriation flights.

 

I asked about this & they said they wanted to stay here. One I talked to did still have a job in tourism but I'm not sure about the others.

 

I don't think all migrants have been stuck here & some have definitely chosen to stay. 




networkn
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  #2515994 2-Jul-2020 09:29
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@gv27

 

 

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12344617

 

 

 

What's your take on that?

 

Rail to the airport was one of the only policies from Labour I actually felt was worthwhile (as proposed) though I didn't see light rail down Dominion Road was the best choice.. (I can't recall if there was an updated proposal but the light rail option was originally talking about 1 hour to get to the airport from the city....).

 

 


GV27
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  #2516034 2-Jul-2020 11:08
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networkn:

 

@gv27

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12344617

 

What's your take on that?

 

Rail to the airport was one of the only policies from Labour I actually felt was worthwhile (as proposed) though I didn't see light rail down Dominion Road was the best choice.. (I can't recall if there was an updated proposal but the light rail option was originally talking about 1 hour to get to the airport from the city....).

 

 

My thoughts in order:

 

1) I just about died laughing when I read who the article was by. That's a headline/author combination for the ages. 

 

2) This piece is vintage Winston - he's decrying 'light rail' as if the bloated garbage proposal Twyford likes was actually light rail. It was a full metro service. He makes no comment on the initial proposal, which he omits that they already agreed to, per this Spinoff piece:

 

https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/02-07-2020/a-blame-guide-for-the-auckland-light-rail-cluster-shemozzle-uber-bungle/

 

3) The airport is a dead heron. Very few trips along the commuter LRT down Dominion Road would have been from the CBD to the airport (think 5% or less). The advantages light rail offered was to 1) remove buses from a congested corridor, which HR to the airport does not do, and 2) provide rapid transit in places like Mangere town centre that currently have few options to as alternatives to driving. 

 

Ditto North West Auckland, which again, Winston does not mention. None of these issues would be solved by extending the heavy rail network, which would require extensive tunneling, can't connect to communities that actually need it and don't do anything to address bus congestion in the CBD or that you'd need so many buses down Dominion Road to service growth along the corridor that they wouldn't be able to stop and let people on or off. 

 

But sure, if you exclude all those points, like Winston has, then I guess he has a point? 


Fred99
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  #2516090 2-Jul-2020 11:33
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So David Clark has resigned.  It would have been politically better if he'd been "allowed" to resign when his antics first blew up, I guess we have to believe at face value that it would have been too disruptive - though I'm not seeing how - surely a lot of how well a ministry functions is related to confidence in the minister - he seemed intent on sabotaging efforts that the public did have confidence in - which continued until recently.

 

Media questions seem to focus on whether he left voluntarily or was pushed.  I'm sure the real answer is "yes" - but that doesn't matter.

 

 


 
 
 
 

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GV27
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  #2516114 2-Jul-2020 12:22
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Fred99:

 

Media questions seem to focus on whether he left voluntarily or was pushed.  I'm sure the real answer is "yes" - but that doesn't matter.

 

 

Isn't it interesting how ministers start getting pushed once we get into the campaign window? Call me cynical but...


MikeAqua
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#2516171 2-Jul-2020 14:39
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Fred99:

 

So David Clark has resigned.  It would have been politically better if he'd been "allowed" to resign when his antics first blew up, I guess we have to believe at face value that it would have been too disruptive - though I'm not seeing how - surely a lot of how well a ministry functions is related to confidence in the minister - he seemed intent on sabotaging efforts that the public did have confidence in - which continued until recently.

 

Media questions seem to focus on whether he left voluntarily or was pushed.  I'm sure the real answer is "yes" - but that doesn't matter.

 

 

Scarily Fred ... I agree with you.  He doesn't seem to have achieved much by staying on. 

 

With colleagues like Clark, Twyford, Curran and Whaitiri  ... Ardern hardly needs enemies 🤡🤡🤡🤡  🤣





Mike


JaseNZ

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  #2516343 2-Jul-2020 17:26
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Fred99:

 

So David Clark has resigned.  It would have been politically better if he'd been "allowed" to resign when his antics first blew up, I guess we have to believe at face value that it would have been too disruptive - though I'm not seeing how - surely a lot of how well a ministry functions is related to confidence in the minister - he seemed intent on sabotaging efforts that the public did have confidence in - which continued until recently.

 

Media questions seem to focus on whether he left voluntarily or was pushed.  I'm sure the real answer is "yes" - but that doesn't matter.

 

 

 

 

He would have been 100% told to resign. Get gid of Tyford at the same time he has done far far worse than Clark.





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Fred99
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  #2516381 2-Jul-2020 18:30
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MikeAqua:

 

Fred99:

 

So David Clark has resigned.  It would have been politically better if he'd been "allowed" to resign when his antics first blew up, I guess we have to believe at face value that it would have been too disruptive - though I'm not seeing how - surely a lot of how well a ministry functions is related to confidence in the minister - he seemed intent on sabotaging efforts that the public did have confidence in - which continued until recently.

 

Media questions seem to focus on whether he left voluntarily or was pushed.  I'm sure the real answer is "yes" - but that doesn't matter.

 

 

Scarily Fred ... I agree with you.  He doesn't seem to have achieved much by staying on. 

 

With colleagues like Clark, Twyford, Curran and Whaitiri  ... Ardern hardly needs enemies 🤡🤡🤡🤡  🤣

 

 

Well you'd possibly be ecstatic to hear my opinion that putting Hipkins in the Health portfolio is one of the dumbest things they could have done right now.  I think he's possibly quite a capable chap - but education as one portfolio (was split between tertiary and primary/secondary) when you're in the middle of a reform (polytechs) which was quite rational (IMO) but comes with a raft of complications, the health sector is about to be overturned by similar reforms (consolidating boards), and throw in that there's an extremely critical pandemic management crisis - and putting him in charge of the lot is sheer and utter madness.


Handle9
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  #2516383 2-Jul-2020 18:31
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Fred99:

 

Well you'd possibly be ecstatic to hear my opinion that putting Hipkins in the Health portfolio is one of the dumbest things they could have done right now.  I think he's possibly quite a capable chap - but education as one portfolio (was split between tertiary and primary/secondary) when you're in the middle of a reform (polytechs) which was quite rational (IMO) but comes with a raft of complications, the health sector is about to be overturned by similar reforms (consolidating boards), and throw in that there's an extremely critical pandemic management crisis - and putting him in charge of the lot is sheer and utter madness.

 

 

He's a placeholder for Ayesha Verrall.


 
 
 
 

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Fred99
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  #2516390 2-Jul-2020 18:44
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Handle9:

 

He's a placeholder for Ayesha Verrall.

 

 

OK - I'm reasonably happy to hear that.

 

I'd have been happier to see Ardern hold the reigns of the Health portfolio than Hipkins.

 

I forgot to mention in my post above that as well as the reforms (Polytechs/DHB) he's got a huge problem with Universities, some polytechs, and some high schools to sort out - losing foreign student revenue - and it's critical to get that sorted.

 

IMO it should have never ever allowed to evolve that they were so dependent on that market, as it's a fickle market that was already in decline before C-19 - but that's in the past.  It needs to be dealt with now - and it's a big job.  For C-19 and geopolitical reasons, that market is not not coming back soon - if ever.


GV27
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  #2516544 3-Jul-2020 06:42
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Handle9:

 

He's a placeholder for Ayesha Verrall.

 

 

Not sure about how wise it is to give her one of the biggest Ministries as in her first term as an MP. I'm trying to think of when we had a first-term MP in the big three (Health/Finance/Education) and I'm drawing a blank. 


MikeAqua
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  #2516798 3-Jul-2020 14:34
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Fred99:

 

MikeAqua:

 

I have genuinely lost some respect for Ardern over this.

 

 

Your words:

 

  • Praise in public
  • 'Scold' in private

What's it going to be - or do you have access to what's going on in private?

 

I'd be surprised if Clark has a future in politics.  The "DCM" would have applied in business, but an electorate MP can't be "fired".

 

He should "do the right thing" and fall on his sword.  Getting rid of him will be messy.

 

 

I would have thought this obvious, but I'll explain.  If you have you have to give negative feedback you do it in private.  If you have something positive to say to a subordinate you do it in front of others.  These are long established tenants of leadership.

 

The former Minister of health threw Dr Bloomfield under the bus in public.  As did the PM.





Mike


MikeAqua
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  #2516799 3-Jul-2020 14:37
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Fred99:

 

Well you'd possibly be ecstatic to hear my opinion that putting Hipkins in the Health portfolio is one of the dumbest things they could have done right now. 

 

 

Yeah health + education is a heavy load to bear.  Thankless portfolios in which change is opposed as a matter of principle.  May as well give him welfare as well and run a sweepstake on how log until he snaps (joke).

 

 





Mike


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