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sen8or
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  #3422927 8-Oct-2025 08:06
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When I first saw the bit about getting young people into jobs and off the benefit, my first reaction was good, motivate them into work. I see that there is also a carrot being offered, not just the stick.

 

I looked a bit more though, its not that black and white. Seek has about 2200 jobs in Christchurch, Trademe has about 1700, and presumably many of these are duplicates. I'd be surprised if the actual number is more than maybe 2500. Thats across all industries and all levels. Take out the jobs that need experience, qualifications and/or specialised skills / licenses and I'd hate to think what the no of jobs in Canterbury are for inexperienced youth and this is the country's 2nd largest city!

 

I know from my sons experience, took him 12 months + to get a full time job after his uni degree, and that job was created for him after doing some temp work at the company and not really related at all to the degree he has.

 

There is simply no motivation for businesses to hire inexperienced workers and give them a chance. Minimum wage for a 40 hour week is now just under $50k, thats a big expense for many small - medium businesses to incur on a resource which is largely unproven in the working world. Factor in the minefield that is employment law and if the business gets something slightly wrong in their processes, the costs can be significant. Theres the argument that if someone is in business then they should know about laws and be all over things, but how many businesses have the resources for that?

 

I don't know what the solution is, its not throwing more money at welfare, but its not cutting peoples lunch either. Provide incentives to business somehow without it being seen as the Govt simply "looking after their rich mates"? 

 

 

 

 




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  #3422931 8-Oct-2025 08:36
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sen8or: When I first saw the bit about getting young people into jobs and off the benefit, my first reaction was good, motivate them into work. I see that there is also a carrot being offered, not just the stick.

The carrot..

Rnz: Upston also announced that 18-24-year-olds participating in the Ministry of Social Development's community job coaching service could apply for a $1000 bonus payment, if they found a job and stayed off the benefit for 12 months. The policy will start in October, with the first payments available from October 2026. Currently, 4000 places exist in the job-coaching scheme.

Community job coaching sounds interesting. I wonder what that means in practice. It sounds like it might be more than the the usual "go apply for jobs or lose your means of support" type of coaching.

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  #3422932 8-Oct-2025 08:50
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sen8or: There is simply no motivation for businesses to hire inexperienced workers and give them a chance. Minimum wage for a 40 hour week is now just under $50k, thats a big expense for many small - medium businesses to incur on a resource which is largely unproven in the working world.

This is not a new issue. It does tend to come up when the economy is going south.

Factor in the minefield that is employment law and if the business gets something slightly wrong in their processes, the costs can be significant. Theres the argument that if someone is in business then they should know about laws and be all over things, but how many businesses have the resources for that?

There's really no rocket science involved and the process and requirements can be simply summarized into a checklist and basic record keeping to keep things on track for both parties. It's not hard to comply with.



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  #3422936 8-Oct-2025 08:58
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evnafets:
Not just denouncing this person for their actions, but effectively interfering in that persons life outside of protesting.

 

 

 

 

Once again for clarity: I absolutely draw the line at violence and property damage. That being said, Winston Peters has absolutely no problem at all inflaming people, or even saying things about them that would indeed get him fired if not prosecuted if he wasn't saying them in the one place in New Zealand you can say anything you like without consequence.

 

He has spent a career doing it, but in the last 5-6 years or so he has really amped it up because it is clear that it attracts the admiration and votes of a certain type of person, and if there's one thing Winston can't live without, it is votes. In particular, he's just back from flipping two middle fingers and a lilly-white ass at hundreds of thousands of people who have marched in the streets to tell this government what they should do in regards to Palestine, lying to their faces about how he was going to be the big man listening to all the other heavy hitters and making his deeply considered decision at a moment's notice before his big unrehearsed speech, when in fact (as everyone already knew) the decision was made a fortnight earlier and Peters and Seymour spent the following days giggling behind the backs of all the dropkicks, bottom feeders and woke leftists they were about to p*** off in the most spectacular way possible.

 

He has been sowing the wind, and was lucky to have only reaped a small gust.

 

The guy who broke his window should be prosecuted just like anyone else who goes around breaking windows. But there is certainly an alternate New Zealand where that didn't happen because Winston Peters was just slightly less of a d***head.





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sen8or
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  #3422938 8-Oct-2025 09:05
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gzt: 
There's really no rocket science involved and the process and requirements can be simply summarized into a checklist and basic record keeping to keep things on track for both parties. It's not hard to comply with.

 

if that was correct, there wouldn't be companies out there like sacked kiwi whom specialise in pursuing unfair dismissal / disciplinary cases. I've seen first hand the result of a technical breach in a process that cost an employer $10k+ for someone who admitted stealing from the employer and the process was guided by a firm specialised in employment law.

 

Rocket science at least has repeatable results from tests, employment law and its application seem to be open to interpretation.... 


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  #3422942 8-Oct-2025 09:16
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sen8or:

 

if that was correct, there wouldn't be companies out there like sacked kiwi whom specialise in pursuing unfair dismissal / disciplinary cases. I've seen first hand the result of a technical breach in a process that cost an employer $10k+ for someone who admitted stealing from the employer and the process was guided by a firm specialised in employment law.

 

Rocket science at least has repeatable results from tests, employment law and its application seem to be open to interpretation.... 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, things like that happen, but they are very much the exception and don't really have any bearing on whether there are jobs available for young people, or for anyone that wants one, for that matter. The opposite of things like that - where an employer clearly in the wrong gets away with it - also happen. Employment law being complicated is almost certainly partly because it has to cover every possible type of the ways that people can be employed in every possible type of career. That doesn't mean we couldn't find ways to simplify or streamline some aspects of it. But it's a fact of life that everyone involved on both sides to the contract has to deal with.

 

If businesses needed people, they would hire them.





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  #3422943 8-Oct-2025 09:31
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sen8or: if that was correct, there wouldn't be companies out there like sacked kiwi whom specialise in pursuing unfair dismissal / disciplinary cases. I've seen first hand the result of a technical breach in a process that cost an employer $10k+ for someone who admitted stealing from the employer and the process was guided by a firm specialised in employment law. Rocket science at least has repeatable results from tests, employment law and its application seem to be open to interpretation....

This example resulted in a $16k judgement against the employer after an employer accused an employee of theft and effectively dismissed the employee:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/motueka-bakery-worker-awarded-16000-after-unfair-dismissal/VEETHEF6MZGNXEUMLEPCG5D52U/

It's easy to see that was not a fair process. A simple steps required guide for that scenario would have saved the unnecessary trouble and likely identified the cause of the missing $400 amounts. In practice imo the vast majority of workers do not pursue cases even when the process used is obviously unfair and deficient.

I honestly think MBIE could do a better job of providing guidance to employers.

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  #3423036 8-Oct-2025 15:14
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sen8or:

 

gzt: 
There's really no rocket science involved and the process and requirements can be simply summarized into a checklist and basic record keeping to keep things on track for both parties. It's not hard to comply with.

 

if that was correct, there wouldn't be companies out there like sacked kiwi whom specialise in pursuing unfair dismissal / disciplinary cases. I've seen first hand the result of a technical breach in a process that cost an employer $10k+ for someone who admitted stealing from the employer and the process was guided by a firm specialised in employment law.

 

Rocket science at least has repeatable results from tests, employment law and its application seem to be open to interpretation.... 

 

 

Employment lawyers exist because there are some pretty awful employers who think laws don’t apply to them. Can you imagine how much more widespread abuse of employees rights would be if there wasn’t the ability for employees to take legal action?

 

There are sample processes and documentation available on government websites and you need to be fair and keep records. It’s not rocket science. 

 

Termination is a process that has a massive impact on the employees life and reputation. It’s completely correct that it should be done in a fair way and that employers can’t go full Trump. 


quickymart
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  #3423091 8-Oct-2025 15:30
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Polling released today shows if the election were held tomorrow, National/ACT/NZ First would be out, and Labour would be in - but not by much:

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/575328/national-falls-below-30-percent-in-latest-curia-poll-left-bloc-could-form-government

 

 


sen8or
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  #3423097 8-Oct-2025 15:50
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Handle9:

 

Employment lawyers exist because there are some pretty awful employers who think laws don’t apply to them. Can you imagine how much more widespread abuse of employees rights would be if there wasn’t the ability for employees to take legal action?

 

There are sample processes and documentation available on government websites and you need to be fair and keep records. It’s not rocket science. 

 

Termination is a process that has a massive impact on the employees life and reputation. It’s completely correct that it should be done in a fair way and that employers can’t go full Trump. 

 

 

Undoubtedly there are some pretty awful employers out there, but there are equally some pretty awful employees who know how to game the system, extremes exist on both sides of the equation, but its the balance between fair process and nit-picking at technicalities where problems arise.

 

The process may not be rocket science, but getting it 100% defensibly correct is a pretty narrow path that even experts get wrong. Even in cases where they don't get it wrong, its often cheaper for mediation by the employer and a payment than to spend time and money fighting it out (lawyers are what $ 500 an hour?), because some employment lawyers act on a no win / no fee basis and the risk/cost of employment court would far outweigh a mediated settlement.

 

I agree that termination can have a massive impact on an employees life and we can't go full Trump (or in the US - at will employment), but with so many NZ businesses being small to medium enterprises, the balance is difficult to achieve (and no, I'm not an employer nor do I manage employment processes). 

 

 


sen8or
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  #3423098 8-Oct-2025 15:51
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quickymart:

 

Polling released today shows if the election were held tomorrow, National/ACT/NZ First would be out, and Labour would be in - but not by much:

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/575328/national-falls-below-30-percent-in-latest-curia-poll-left-bloc-could-form-government

 

 

 

 

No surprises there. The economy is what cost Labour the election last time (and party fatigue to a point), its the economy that will cost National this time.


 
 
 
 

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Handle9
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  #3423106 8-Oct-2025 16:41
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sen8or:

 

Handle9:

 

Employment lawyers exist because there are some pretty awful employers who think laws don’t apply to them. Can you imagine how much more widespread abuse of employees rights would be if there wasn’t the ability for employees to take legal action?

 

There are sample processes and documentation available on government websites and you need to be fair and keep records. It’s not rocket science. 

 

Termination is a process that has a massive impact on the employees life and reputation. It’s completely correct that it should be done in a fair way and that employers can’t go full Trump. 

 

 

Undoubtedly there are some pretty awful employers out there, but there are equally some pretty awful employees who know how to game the system, extremes exist on both sides of the equation, but its the balance between fair process and nit-picking at technicalities where problems arise.

 

The process may not be rocket science, but getting it 100% defensibly correct is a pretty narrow path that even experts get wrong. Even in cases where they don't get it wrong, its often cheaper for mediation by the employer and a payment than to spend time and money fighting it out (lawyers are what $ 500 an hour?), because some employment lawyers act on a no win / no fee basis and the risk/cost of employment court would far outweigh a mediated settlement.

 

I agree that termination can have a massive impact on an employees life and we can't go full Trump (or in the US - at will employment), but with so many NZ businesses being small to medium enterprises, the balance is difficult to achieve (and no, I'm not an employer nor do I manage employment processes). 

 

 

 

 

I’ve never terminated anyone for cause but I’ve made people redundant. Following the correct process isn’t particularly difficult, it requires some attention to detail but it’s should require attention to detail. if an employer can’t follow a basic process then that’s on them. 

You seem particularly fixated on there being lawyers available to represent employees. If non-compliance wasn’t so widespread there wouldn’t be no-win no-fee lawyers. It’s because there is such widespread abuse of employees rights that they exist. It’s very clear that if there isn’t strong workplace protections for employees then many employers will take advantage of their staff. 

 

An SME owner should be capable of reading a website and writing letters. If they are not they should pay for advice, the same as they would for any other technical service. If they don’t why should anyone feel sorry for them? That’s a risk they chose. The law doesn’t exist to save people from themselves. 


sen8or
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  #3423110 8-Oct-2025 16:55
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Redundancy is a completely different beast than terminating for cause (hence why some employers opt to make positions redundant in the first place, it can be much easier, quicker and is more defensible than terminating for cause).

 

This is taking the thread off track, back to our peak performing Govt....


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  #3423392 9-Oct-2025 13:53
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Borrowing to keep the lights on during a once-in-a-hundred-years pandemic is really bad when Labour does it, but A-OK when National does it (and anyway it's probably Labour's fault).





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quickymart
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  #3423413 9-Oct-2025 14:43
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More stories of people who contradict Luxon's claims of "there's heaps of jobs out there":

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360847529/prime-minister-says-young-people-need-get-jobs-these-young-new-zealanders-say-it-isnt-easy

 

 


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