Climate change policy discussion.

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#1962874 23-Feb-2018 11:52

Geektastic:

Also the annual registration should relate to CO2 emissions as it does in the EU. The Dodge Ram mentioned above would probably be in the UK top rate for that, a cost of NZ$5,000 for the first year of registration and $1,000 per annum thereafter, approx.

I can't agree with that, as claimed fuel economy figures are mainly BS relative to real on-road economy (CO2 emission in Kg being a direct multiple of fuel use in litres).

If there's going to be such a carbon tax, then it should be on fuel. And if they're going to do that, then they should impose the same tax per CO2 equivalent emissions for everything - not just private motor cars which only account for a small percentage of NZ total emissions.

That would be very effective, as farming, manufacturing export industries would go out of business,we wouldn't be able to afford cars but could use hand tools make wooden bicycles to ride around on.

GV27

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#1962875 23-Feb-2018 11:57

Geektastic:

We could start by having a proper emissions test in the WOF, with vehicles failing it being pink stickered off the road. Tango Sierra if you're poor and want to run a clunker - you'll have to use public transport or walk, which will be better for you and better for the environment in any case.

We should subsidise the installation of home solar electricity as well.

Also the annual registration should relate to CO2 emissions as it does in the EU. The Dodge Ram mentioned above would probably be in the UK top rate for that, a cost of NZ$5,000 for the first year of registration and $1,000 per annum thereafter, approx.

TS if you're too poor to afford a newer car that meets modern emissions standards, you mean.

This is classic Green Party environmentalism, demanding everyone be taxed as if they have the lifestyle and disposable income of people who live in Remuera, for whom 'going green' is buying a Tesla Model X instead of a Q7.

Geektastic

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#1962954 23-Feb-2018 13:22

GV27:

Geektastic:

We could start by having a proper emissions test in the WOF, with vehicles failing it being pink stickered off the road. Tango Sierra if you're poor and want to run a clunker - you'll have to use public transport or walk, which will be better for you and better for the environment in any case.

We should subsidise the installation of home solar electricity as well.

Also the annual registration should relate to CO2 emissions as it does in the EU. The Dodge Ram mentioned above would probably be in the UK top rate for that, a cost of NZ$5,000 for the first year of registration and $1,000 per annum thereafter, approx.

TS if you're too poor to afford a newer car that meets modern emissions standards, you mean.

This is classic Green Party environmentalism, demanding everyone be taxed as if they have the lifestyle and disposable income of people who live in Remuera, for whom 'going green' is buying a Tesla Model X instead of a Q7.

Any car made in the last 15 or 20 years should pass a reasonable emissions test.

Geektastic

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#1962955 23-Feb-2018 13:23

Fred99:

Geektastic:

Also the annual registration should relate to CO2 emissions as it does in the EU. The Dodge Ram mentioned above would probably be in the UK top rate for that, a cost of NZ$5,000 for the first year of registration and $1,000 per annum thereafter, approx.

I can't agree with that, as claimed fuel economy figures are mainly BS relative to real on-road economy (CO2 emission in Kg being a direct multiple of fuel use in litres).

If there's going to be such a carbon tax, then it should be on fuel. And if they're going to do that, then they should impose the same tax per CO2 equivalent emissions for everything - not just private motor cars which only account for a small percentage of NZ total emissions.

That would be very effective, as farming, manufacturing export industries would go out of business,we wouldn't be able to afford cars but could use hand tools make wooden bicycles to ride around on.

Ah - the "it won't work in NZ" argument...

happyfunball

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#1962994 23-Feb-2018 14:24

GV27:

TS if you're too poor to afford a newer car that meets modern emissions standards, you mean.

This is classic Green Party environmentalism, demanding everyone be taxed as if they have the lifestyle and disposable income of people who live in Remuera, for whom 'going green' is buying a Tesla Model X instead of a Q7.

Emissions testing just forces vehicle owners to maintain their vehicles better, not force them to buy a new one. This has been done for many years in other countries already.

If people are struggling financially give them a break on their taxes, or increase benefits. Don't ignore pollution and emissions under the guise of giving the poor a break.

Same goes for agriculture or any other business. It may be in our best interest to credit farmers somehow so they can afford to stay in business, but lets not ignore emissions and pretend burning diesel is a good idea.

Right now the incentives are backwards, we reward fossil fuel usage with lower costs, and discourage maintenance with no emissions testing.

1101

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#1963000 23-Feb-2018 14:36

Lets pass regulations that hammer the poor and make the well off feel good

Lets ignore the fact that ~newer~ and electric vehicles were made in china : USING POWER GENERATED BY BURNING COAL

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#1963001 23-Feb-2018 14:40

1101:

Lets pass regulations that hammer the poor and make the well off feel good

Lets ignore the fact that ~newer~ and electric vehicles were made in china : USING POWER GENERATED BY BURNING COAL

Nah, that not a good reason to do nothing. EV's are still much better from a CO2 emission point of view than petrol and diesel, even if their manufacture was using energy from coal. And China is adding Wind/Solar/Nuclear at a very fast rate. Their grid is cleaner than Australia.

And thats ignoring the health effects from burning petrol and diesel .

Geektastic

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#1963004 23-Feb-2018 14:48

1101:

Lets pass regulations that hammer the poor and make the well off feel good

Lets ignore the fact that ~newer~ and electric vehicles were made in china : USING POWER GENERATED BY BURNING COAL

Or...we could pass regulations that don't care how rich or not you are because they are designed to save the planet. If that means the poor have to trade up their car or use public transport, then that is a side effect not an intended consequence. However, if it is deemed necessary to save the planet, then surely the result must be allowed to stand.

You cannot have your cake and eat it sometimes.

GV27

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#1963009 23-Feb-2018 14:53

happyfunball:

GV27:

TS if you're too poor to afford a newer car that meets modern emissions standards, you mean.

This is classic Green Party environmentalism, demanding everyone be taxed as if they have the lifestyle and disposable income of people who live in Remuera, for whom 'going green' is buying a Tesla Model X instead of a Q7.

Emissions testing just forces vehicle owners to maintain their vehicles better, not force them to buy a new one. This has been done for many years in other countries already.

If people are struggling financially give them a break on their taxes, or increase benefits. Don't ignore pollution and emissions under the guise of giving the poor a break.

Same goes for agriculture or any other business. It may be in our best interest to credit farmers somehow so they can afford to stay in business, but lets not ignore emissions and pretend burning diesel is a good idea.

Right now the incentives are backwards, we reward fossil fuel usage with lower costs, and discourage maintenance with no emissions testing.

Maybe some knowledge helps: A car imported today that is less than 20 years old must meet Euro IV (or JAP equivalent) emissions standards in order to be registered. The cut off point for most cars seems to be 2008, although some small displacement cars will sneak in if they had fuel-efficient engines previously (e.g. a 2007 Mini Cooper). I'd argue import rules are taking care of this for you, and people who can afford to renew their cars generally are not buying cars over 20 years old.

I'm also not ignoring pollution and emissions, just perhaps being more realistic about people's financial situations and being mindful that the people who end up least being able to change their circumstances usually end up wearing these costs the most. I'd suggest they are perhaps more concerned with making rent next week or filling the tank than you or I might be. Perhaps if Auckland was a city where PT was reliable or cheap or fast I could be convinced that there are realistic alternatives, but the jury is definitely out on that one.

1101

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#1963043 23-Feb-2018 15:45

Geektastic:

If that means the poor have to trade up their car or use public transport, then that is a side effect not an intended consequence.

yeah good idea. make them walk a hour each day, in the pouring winter rain.
Because the reality is most dont work or live 5 minutes from a bus stop. Bad leg, cant afford a new car, then too bad for you

liberal politics : just do stuff that makes us feel better. Ignore the realities .
why stop at cars ....

Ban overseas trips via aircraft : that will never happen as that would effect the middle class & rich. Why hammer one type of polluting transport & ignore the others
Double standards

EV : not as clean as some believe , but they make owners feel good .
https://www.ecologic.eu/8271
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/517146/are-electric-vehicles-better-for-the-environment-than-gas-powered-ones/
https://www.wired.com/2016/03/teslas-electric-cars-might-not-green-think/

happyfunball

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#1963052 23-Feb-2018 15:58

GV27:

Maybe some knowledge helps: A car imported today that is less than 20 years old must meet Euro IV (or JAP equivalent) emissions standards in order to be registered.

Thats a good thing, but completely separate to emissions testing. Cars do not undergo mandatory emissions testing before being imported into NZ. They simply have to qualify at time of manufacture with the standards you mentioned.

The problem with that is emissions standards on modern vehicles are based on a brand new engine, with working computer and catalytic converter etc. Those things can break down with time and milage. Which is why other countries have emissions testing. Lets not pretend we don't have dirty cars driving around because we all see it. Even a newish car can malfunction and pollute.

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1101

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#1963059 23-Feb-2018 16:05

Pollution & emmsions :
eat steak, drink milk, use paper (books & newspaper) ,
look the other way while farms & mills pollute the waterways & pump out methane, while drinking out flat white or cooking our meat
That wont change because Av NZer wouldnt stand for what it would take to be truely green (destroying our economy in the process)

China is building an insane number of Coal fired power stations. Wind, solar in Ch is a drop in the bucket . Its Coal .
Any talk of Greenhouse, save the planet, pollution, simply ignores the pollution produced in making the goods we all keep buying

I saw that Ch will soon stop accepting all our rubbish that we wont recycle locally. So we need to find another 3rd world country to send it
off to :-)

happyfunball

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Ultimate Geek
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#1963061 23-Feb-2018 16:10

1101:

EV : not as clean as some believe , but they make owners feel good .
https://www.ecologic.eu/8271
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/517146/are-electric-vehicles-better-for-the-environment-than-gas-powered-ones/
https://www.wired.com/2016/03/teslas-electric-cars-might-not-green-think/

Did you read your links? None of them seem to support your argument, even in the US where they burn a lot of coal. Certainly not here.

A more recent study: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/oct/25/electric-cars-emit-50-less-greenhouse-gas-than-diesel-study-finds

EV's are 50% cleaner *today*, if the grid was %100 coal. In NZ we are almost all renewable, so its much bigger than %50.

Going forward the grid is getting cleaner globally. Coal in the US just can't compete with solar and wind so this is all moving in the right direction.

GV27

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#1963064 23-Feb-2018 16:18

happyfunball:

GV27:

Maybe some knowledge helps: A car imported today that is less than 20 years old must meet Euro IV (or JAP equivalent) emissions standards in order to be registered.

Thats a good thing, but completely separate to emissions testing. Cars do not undergo mandatory emissions testing before being imported into NZ. They simply have to qualify at time of manufacture with the standards you mentioned.

The problem with that is emissions standards on modern vehicles are based on a brand new engine, with working computer and catalytic converter etc. Those things can break down with time and milage. Which is why other countries have emissions testing. Lets not pretend we don't have dirty cars driving around because we all see it. Even a newish car can malfunction and pollute.

We do indeed. But this doesn't line up with what you're saying: A 2000 Toyota Corolla will never be anymore emissions-friendly than it is when it was first built; you're going to have to spend a lot of money to keep it close to that standard (as you point out things break down with time etc); but if you're expecting it to meet even more modern standards then you're effectively forcing it off the road because it simply can't. There's a different between a newish car that is malfunctioning and an older car that is just the best we could do at the time.

happyfunball

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Ultimate Geek
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#1963496 24-Feb-2018 15:41

GV27:

A 2000 Toyota Corolla will never be anymore emissions-friendly than it is when it was first built; you're going to have to spend a lot of money to keep it close to that standard (as you point out things break down with time etc);

Emissions testing is not about keeping a vehicles emissions brand new, its just about maintaining a minimum standard. For example, it can also cap repair costs, such as fix your car to some standard, or pay a $500 heavy polluter fine every X years.

Why make everyone pay for pollution when only a few people are doing most of the polluting? Just because you and I are both using a litre of petrol does not mean we are polluting the same amount. Emissions testing is more fair, those who pollute pay for it.

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