USA school gun incidents / student anti-gun protests / arming teachers

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#2020245 22-May-2018 10:59

MikeB4:

These dreadful incidents are a symptom of a very deep seated problem in the US. Officially and by attitude the US society is an uncaring society. The US needs to look at the root causes and these are extremely complex and deeply imbedded in their society. Saying that they need to bring in stricter gun laws will not address those root causes, it is simply a too simplistic attempt at a solution. They need to address the issues that makes a person pick up the gun and use it.

Sure, but that is a very long term objective. Making it much harder to get a gun still needs to be step 1.

kingdragonfly

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#2020277 22-May-2018 12:02

Stan: Incels are being blamed for this somewhat its a rather sad phenomenon

Incels: "(a portmanteau of 'involuntary' and 'celibacy') are members of an online subculture who define themselves as being unable to find a romantic or sexual partner despite desiring one, a state they describe as inceldom. Self-identified incels are almost exclusively male and mostly heterosexual."

Warning: this video has strong language, not safe for work

From "Real Time from Bill Maher" panellist sex expert Dan Savage

"I hear everyday about people who are miserable because they haven't been touched ever.

They're virgins or haven't had a relationship for 20 years.

Sexual deprivation and romance deprivation does make people miserable.

Not all those people become 'Incels.'

This is truly immiserating, that kind of loneliness, and that kind of despair.

So we have to figure out: there's a lot of people out there that don't have sex, that don't have relationships.

There's a tiny percentage that become active in this Incel community.

What the difference?

The way men are socialized to believe that women are their property, and they are entitled to women's bodies. That meets with the black mould that grows all over the Internet.

Those are the two places we need to really intervene, how men are socialized with what they expect from women and the misogyny that runs riot on the Internet.

That create incels, not sexual deprivation."

Rikkitic

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#2020280 22-May-2018 12:06

"That meets with the black mould that grows all over the Internet."

Fantastic line. Wish I had written it.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

MikeB4

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#2020290 22-May-2018 12:19

Paul1977:

MikeB4:

These dreadful incidents are a symptom of a very deep seated problem in the US. Officially and by attitude the US society is an uncaring society. The US needs to look at the root causes and these are extremely complex and deeply imbedded in their society. Saying that they need to bring in stricter gun laws will not address those root causes, it is simply a too simplistic attempt at a solution. They need to address the issues that makes a person pick up the gun and use it.

Sure, but that is a very long term objective. Making it much harder to get a gun still needs to be step 1.

Sadly there is in excess of 300 million guns in the USA, the horse has left the stable. They could try to restrict the introduction of new guns but I am not sure that would do much. They need to look deeper at the issue, gun control is of course one needed step of many.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

MikeB4

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#2020295 22-May-2018 12:24

"Those are the two places we need to really intervene, how men are socialized with what they expect from women and the misogyny that runs riot on the Internet." And the most prominent example of the legitimising of misogyny is Trump.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

gzt

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#2020433 22-May-2018 15:11

6FIEND:
Recent commentary from Texas:

It's illegal to bring a firearm onto school grounds

It's illegal to saw the barrel off a shotgun

It's illegal for a 17 year old to possess a gun

It's illegal to carry without a permit in Texas

It's illegal to discharge a weapon in public

It's illegal to bring ammo onto school grounds

It's illegal to shoot and injure people

It's illegal to violate someone's civil rights

It's illegal to shoot and murder people

It's illegal to conceal your weapon without a permit

But yeah, we just need one more law. That'll do it.

It is perfectly legal with kids around to keep a loaded weapon with the safety off in a sock draw or broom cupboard. That's where it all starts for many of these school shootings not to mention the many accidents and many other misadventures.

If your kid kills or injured themselves or others you may be prosecuted. In reality it doesnt happen much because no police chief or prosecutor wants to be unpopular.

The best thing they could do is educate on safe storage and eliminate some of these stats.

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#2020443 22-May-2018 15:26

Senior Texas Republicans talking about lock and key:

Texas Tribune: Later that afternoon, U.S. Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, seemed to go even further. It’s “only prudent,” he said, that parents keep their firearms under lock and key; it’s an “open issue” whether parents should be legally required to do so.

Geektastic

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#2020855 23-May-2018 06:57

Paul1977:
Geektastic: It’s a tricky one.

I presume that if your aim is to kill a bunch of children, you do not need a gun to achieve that, so arguably, banning firearms won’t do anything but change the method adopted by the killer from gun to say Ford Mercury or Peterbuilt truck.

I agree that if someone wants to commit a crime like this, there is very little that will stop them. However, if the individual has no ability to obtain a firearm they are generally not able to inflict nearly as much damage.

While not a school shooting, take the Las Vegas shooting as an (admittedly extreme) example. Firearms are probably the only way someone could kill 59 and injure an additional 527 in a single incident.

I can think of others, but I'm not listing them!

amiga500

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#2044131 26-Jun-2018 14:41

Not sure if this is the best thread in which to post this but:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/105009122/new-zealand-man-shot-trying-to-enter-teens-home-in-us (State of Virginia)

'The Goochland County sheriff said Skinner bought a knife and duct tape from Walmart after arriving in the US. The sheriff also said the girl's mother saw a man trying to enter her home, warned him several times she had a gun, then fired after he broke the glass on the second door he tried to open.

Skinner was struck in the neck and remains hospitalised, authorities say.'

Hopefully, the circumstances of the case will mean the mother is not charged with anything. It seems that she did everything she could including warning him several times. Also in her favour will be Skinner being found with a knife and duct tape.

(She would be wise to get a really good attorney though because some crazy things can happen to people trying to protect themselves. I've just finished watching an Aljazeera documentary where a guy fired a warning shot into a wall & finished up with a 20 years jail sentence. In Florida it is a mandatory sentence. Just before his case he was offered a plea deal of no jail time & five years on probation. The guy (who has a masters degree) believed in his innocence & wouldn't take the plea deal. The jury is never told by the judge what a guilty decision can mean re. length of jail sentence. The prosecutor is allowed to offer this deal but the judge has zero discretion. The guy was 53 years old, white, was a theme park admin, type person. If Aljazeera are telling the whole story it's just amazing that he didn't take the plea deal. Any jury trial is a lottery.

This is what Wiki has on the *Florida* law:

The law's name comes from three main mandatory sentences: 1) producing a firearm during the commission of certain felonies mandates at least a 10-year prison sentence; 2) firing one mandates at least a 20-year prison sentence; and 3) shooting someone mandates a minimum sentence of 25 years to life regardless of whether a victim is killed or simply injured.)

kingdragonfly

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#2044162 26-Jun-2018 15:20

While it's an tragic story, it didn't involve a school thankfully.

Needless to say he's lucky to not be dead, but he's royally screwed; he's going to be tried in one of the least friendly states in one of the least friendly countries.

Virginia is a conservative extremely gun friendly state in the South East US. His action definitely fall under the "castle doctrine" and the victim did not need to give any warning, even though she did.

Virginia has strong "stand your ground" law and castle doctrine, :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

"'A stand-your-ground law (sometimes called 'line in the sand' or 'no duty to retreat' law) is a justification in a criminal case, whereby defendants can 'stand their ground' and use force without retreating, in order to protect and defend themselves or others against threats or perceived threats.

An example is where there is no duty to retreat from any place where they have a lawful right to be, and that they may use any level of force if they reasonably believe the threat rises to the level of being an imminent and immediate threat of serious bodily harm and or death.

One case describes 'the 'stand your ground' law... a person has a right to expect absolute safety in a place they have a right to be, and may use deadly force to repel an unlawful intruder.'

Justification using stand-your-ground laws may be limited when '[the defendant] was engaged in illegal activities and not entitled to benefit from provisions of the 'stand your ground' law'.

This may be the case even if the illegal conduct the defendant was engaged in had nothing to do with the threat which instigated his use of deadly force.

For instance, using an illegally obtained weapon in self defense to avoid being robbed and beaten is not justified by this law.

The castle doctrine is a common law doctrine stating that persons have no duty to retreat in their home, or 'castle', and may use reasonable force, including deadly force, to defend their property, person, or another. Outside of the abode, however, a person has a duty to retreat, if possible, before using deadly force. Castle doctrine and 'stand-your-ground' laws are acceptable defenses for people who have been charged with criminal homicide.'

At common law, self-defense claims are not valid if the defendant could have safely retreated from danger (duty to retreat).

The castle doctrine is an exception to this.

It gives immunity from liability to individuals who acted in self-defense in the home even if they could have safely retreated from the threat and failed to do so. The duty to retreat is a legal requirement in some jurisdictions that a threatened person cannot stand one's ground and apply lethal force in self-defense, but must retreat to a place of safety instead.

Deadly force or lethal force is force with the intent of serious bodily injury or death to another person. In most jurisdictions it is only accepted under conditions of extreme necessity and last resort.

Stand-your-ground laws eliminate the retreat requirement at any location the defendant has a legal right to be, though this varies from state to state."

Geektastic

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#2044431 26-Jun-2018 22:08

kingdragonfly:
Stan: Incels are being blamed for this somewhat its a rather sad phenomenon

From "Real Time from Bill Maher" panellist sex expert Dan Savage

"I hear everyday about people who are miserable because they haven't been touched ever.

They're virgins or haven't had a relationship for 20 years.

Sexual deprivation and romance deprivation does make people miserable.

Not all those people become 'Incels.'

This is truly immiserating, that kind of loneliness, and that kind of despair.

So we have to figure out: there's a lot of people out there that don't have sex, that don't have relationships.

Reading that would lead me to suggest legalising prostitution as much as anything to do with guns. If these people cannot manage to get together with other people the usual way, why not simply allow them to do it as a financial transaction? Surely that is what prostitution has been doing for thousands of years?

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amiga500

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#2044781 27-Jun-2018 14:07

This guy will find it hard to claim mental health disability. He was able to use internet clues to find the address, was able to book an itinerary, had permission to enter the US, did nothing on his flights to arouse suspicions, planned the whole thing.

I hope he gets a nice long sentence & only then deported back here.

Even better the lady who fired the gun did not kill him so should have fewer PTSD problems.

MikeAqua

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#2044789 27-Jun-2018 14:27

MikeB4:

"Those are the two places we need to really intervene, how men are socialized with what they expect from women and the misogyny that runs riot on the Internet."

How/where is it that men are socialised in this way?

I'm in my 40's and I was never socialised to see women as property or to feel I was entitled to anything from any woman. In the 1980s messaging on consent was clear and violence toward females was considered abhorrent. Even prior to equal rights etc there was such a thing as being gentleman. The laws that make it a criminal offence to assault a woman in any way were written and passed largely by men.

Short version - I don't think society, or men in general can be blamed for the appalling behaviour that is exhibited by some men. I think those individual men are directly and entirely responsible for their own behaviour.

Mike

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#2044793 27-Jun-2018 14:31

You're right. The defense attorney will likely plead insanity, because it's the only defense, but his planning will make that plead useless. The knife and duct tape will be treated very seriously in painting his intent.

Knowing the American justice system well, if I was a betting man, I'd bet a month's salary we'll never see him in NZ again.

For minor crimes, US law enforcement have been known to deport, or otherwise drop charges if there's some form of remediation. For example, a problem teen could have a shoplifting charge dropped, if enrolled in a private "correction" school.

However his charges are much too serious for that to happen.

In a weird sense, if he committed murder, since Virginia is a death penalty US state, he could have pleaded for a diplomatic solution and asked to allow to have the trial in New Zealand for humanitarian reasons. (Which would have been turned down.)

He also could have been better off if he managed to take her across state lines, since it would have been a federal crime. Federal prisons are nicer, and Federal judges are more "worldly", and less likely to use the maximum sentence.

Weirdly his only effective "out" since she's under 18, would be to marry her. Virginia allows underage weddings with parents' permission. If he married the 14 year old girl, which does happen in the South East US, the charges would likely be dropped.

Assuming marriage is out, since no one was killed, it's the state jurisdiction. Virginia will likely ask for life sentence, with no chance of parole. He's lucky Virginia no longer has chain-gangs though.

The trial will likely takes years to complete, but the conclusion is a forgone conclusion: we'll never see him again.

It's unfortunate a 14 year old girl got traumatized.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_gang

MikeAqua

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#2044796 27-Jun-2018 14:32

Geektastic:

Reading that would lead me to suggest legalising prostitution as much as anything to do with guns. If these people cannot manage to get together with other people the usual way, why not simply allow them to do it as a financial transaction? Surely that is what prostitution has been doing for thousands of years?

The particularly nasty Incels won't want to pay. They would believe they are entitled to free 'services'. It's a particularly venal sense of entitlement.

Mike

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