I know the 70s was a great decade, but did our labour laws have to go back in time?

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Forums › Politics › I know the 70s was a great decade, but did our labour laws have to go back in time?

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#2705864 11-May-2021 09:43

sen8or:

Yes, a bunch of politicians with zero actual real world business experience are a great bunch to decide what the value of labour actually is.......

"Business experience" would lead them to set the value of labour at zero - if they could get away with it.

antonknee

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#2705865 11-May-2021 09:43

sen8or:

Yes, a bunch of politicians with zero actual real world business experience are a great bunch to decide what the value of labour actually is.......

Given that we vote them in, and they have a view of the entire country/economy/society, and given many of them are experienced in various fields, and given they make important decisions every day across a range of areas I would say yes they are - particularly where it comes to setting the bare minimum. I would further say they're better placed to make this decision that some middle manager armed with an Excel spreadsheet, or a small business owner who has simply decided they'd like to upgrade the boat this year.

sen8or

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#2705905 11-May-2021 11:30

antonknee:

You do realise that (generally) this is actually not a reduction in employment - this labour gets redeployed to other tasks. I am intimately familiar with four separate retail businesses who have put in self checkouts but and deployed this labour to other tasks, for example handling online orders.

You may also be interested to know that Countdown (as an example) pay above minimum for a lot of store roles and so are insulated from minimum wage increases.

In any case, some businesses and smart people realise there are benefits to employing people and that your employees are not just a drain on the bank account - unless you're an idiot manager, the calculation is a little more detailed than '$20/hour'.

Paying above minimum wage doesn't insulate businesses from increases in the minimum wage, look at what happened at KFC (and a few others) about 2 years ago (I think), the experienced staff (2ic, supervisors etc) very quickly realised that their wage was not growing at the same rate as the minimum, and that there was bugger all difference between what they were paid and a complete newby.

We pay not only above minimum, but at the top end of our industry to attract the right people and they regularly have wage discussions centred around their value to the business vs their remuneration with adjustments made especially where it is demonstrated what they have achieved. I am all for paying well for results, I am against paying well "just because" and I am against lumping workers in one bucket. A good staff member should be able to negotiate a good wage, an average one should not be rewarded simply by being part of a group.

My experience with supermarkets (not countdown) is that labour has been cut (through attrition or reduction of hours / shifts) and working conditions dramatically changed (forcing staff to work at ridiculous times of the day as they can have fewer staff doing the work). Whether or not checkout staff have been redeployed, not sure.

sen8or

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#2705906 11-May-2021 11:33

Fred99:

sen8or:

Yes, a bunch of politicians with zero actual real world business experience are a great bunch to decide what the value of labour actually is.......

"Business experience" would lead them to set the value of labour at zero - if they could get away with it.

The value of labour should always be set at the point where it brings in the best return for the outlay.

Fred99

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#2705910 11-May-2021 11:50

sen8or:

The value of labour should always be set at the point where it brings in the best return for the outlay.

Which is as close to zero as possible, hence why slavery and feudalism was so popular in the past.

Not sure why you seem to be arguing with me - when you seem to agree.

Fred99

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#2705919 11-May-2021 11:56

sen8or:

We pay not only above minimum, but at the top end of our industry to attract the right people and they regularly have wage discussions centred around their value to the business vs their remuneration with adjustments made especially where it is demonstrated what they have achieved.

Well good on you then. Why are you posting that snippet? An increase to minimum wage and work conditions would have no impact on your business. If your competitors are enjoying an advantage by exploiting cheap labour, then increasing minimum wages will help your business compete.

Seems like ideological BS to counter an obvious failure of "the market" to provide "living wages" to many workers.

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sen8or

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#2705921 11-May-2021 12:00

Fred99:

Which is as close to zero as possible, hence why slavery and feudalism was so popular in the past.

Not sure why you seem to be arguing with me - when you seem to agree.

I disagree that the value of labour would be as close to zero as possible, but mandating a wage rate that has nothing to do with productivity or return on investment is simply imposing a form of tax on the business.

Fred99

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#2705926 11-May-2021 12:09

sen8or:

Fred99:

Which is as close to zero as possible, hence why slavery and feudalism was so popular in the past.

Not sure why you seem to be arguing with me - when you seem to agree.

I disagree that the value of labour would be as close to zero as possible, but mandating a wage rate that has nothing to do with productivity or return on investment is simply imposing a form of tax on the business.

No it's not. It's imposing a minimum standard for payment for labour. Same as there are minimum standards for work conditions.
If your business can't sustain those minimum statutory costs, then close it down and do something more productive.
You could probably make a fortune by exploiting labour to remove asbestos cheaply (and illegally), but the regulations to ensure worker safety no "tax on business". Nor are minimum pay rates to ensure workers can survive above some grim deprived unhealthy subsistence level.

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#2705959 11-May-2021 13:54

sen8or:
Fred99:

Which is as close to zero as possible, hence why slavery and feudalism was so popular in the past.

Not sure why you seem to be arguing with me - when you seem to agree.

I disagree that the value of labour would be as close to zero as possible, but mandating a wage rate that has nothing to do with productivity or return on investment is simply imposing a form of tax on the business.

Yes. It's redistribution of wealth. Trickle down economics doesn't work.

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#2705967 11-May-2021 14:18

sen8or:
Handle9:

It may also start to address some of the productivity problems New Zealand has. At the moment the efficient way to grow many businesses is to add lowly paid labour. Making labour more expensive incentivises investment in technology and automation, which in turn incentivises economic growth.

Which then reduces employment creating an even greater divide between the haves and the have nots. Look at supermarkets for example, the increase in self serve checkouts, how many of those would have previously been filled by actual humans had it not been (at least in part in my opinion) for the forced increases over the last few years on the cost of labour? Far fewer jobs on offer and these were frequently a teenagers "first job", what is the incentive now for them to hire a fresh out of nappies teenager with zero work experience and pay them $20/hour?

Yet somehow it works out in the rest of the world.

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#2705972 11-May-2021 14:21

Trickle down works fine, if you are prepared to work to swim higher up the the top of the stream......but the current won't take you there without hard work.

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#2705974 11-May-2021 14:25

sen8or:
Trickle down works fine, if you are prepared to work to swim higher up the the top of the stream......but the current won't take you there without hard work.

The "hard work will get you there" falacy. Why don't you pull out " they'd be rich if they didn't spend all there money on smokes and drugs" as well?

sen8or

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#2706100 11-May-2021 15:32

They wouldn't be poorer...... But thats hardly an/the argument is it

Why is that a falacy?

Hard work doesn't just mean for your employer, it applies in and out of employment. Doing additional training and/or education to better yourself and therefore increase your marketability as an employee is hard work (been there) as is putting yourself forward for things at work that are outside the scope of your job description (e.g. health and safety rep, volunteer for projects etc). Opportunities may not be present in all businesses / jobs, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

There is no magic solution to wages, its all a balancing act -

- Give everyone a wage that is higher than the cost/benefit value and you'll continually be chasing your tail as businesses are forced to increase prices to cover increased costs, which forces increased costs to cover increased prices.

- Pay wages that are lower than the cost/benefit value and staff are demotivated and distracted by lifes struggles and their inability to meet basic needs. This negatively impacts productivity and profit.

Its the point where the cost/benefit value lies that will always be different depending on your viewpoint.

Businesses exist to make profit, they may make strategic decisions to do things for the betterment of the community, environment and/or staff, but the underlying motivation is increased revenue / profit (provide healthcare for example and the hope is that this results in fewer sick days, meaning more productivity, meaning more profit. Pay more for recycled / earth friendly packaging and you can market as being "sustainable", which is good for the environment but also a good marketing ploy, which means more revenue which means more profit).

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#2706102 11-May-2021 15:40

I suggest you go and do some reading.

Of course wages are a balancing act. Given there has been full employment (or near enough) for many years but not wage growth indicates that supply and demand is distorted. Changing that is a good thing.

Inflation is not a bad thing either. Hyper inflation is very bad but a bit of inflation is very healthy for an economy and actually required in NZ if houses are ever to become affordable again.

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#2706274 11-May-2021 19:57

@sen8or:

Why is that a falacy?

Because you are linking trickle down with hard work - which is not the case.

"Trickle-down economics, or “trickle-down theory,” states that tax breaks and benefits for corporations and the wealthy will trickle down to everyone else. It argues for income and capital gains tax breaks or other financial benefits to large businesses, investors, and entrepreneurs to stimulate economic growth. The argument hinges on two assumptions: All members of society benefit from growth, and growth is most likely to come from those with the resources and skills to increase productive output."

In fact what we see is wealthy accumulation at the top and no redistribution to the bottom. Regardless of how hard the bottom works.

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