I know the 70s was a great decade, but did our labour laws have to go back in time?

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Forums › Politics › I know the 70s was a great decade, but did our labour laws have to go back in time?

sen8or

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#284653 7-May-2021 13:38

It seems Labour's overlords and funders are finally reaping the benefits of their support

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/125059465/government-announces-fair-pay-agreements-plan-in-radical-overhaul-of-new-zealand-employment-laws

Ok, so they are trying to increase bargaining power of employees, fair enough, but then they announce no pay rises for public sector workers? Hypocritical much? Or has the public sector unions already been bought off as not to upset things for their fellow unionists?

This will not go well

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BDFL - Memuneh
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#2703375 7-May-2021 13:46

sen8or:

Ok, so they are trying to increase bargaining power of employees, fair enough, but then they announce no pay rises for public sector workers? Hypocritical much? Or has the public sector unions already been bought off as not to upset things for their fellow unionists?

This will not go well

The seems like a loaded question from the start - assuming guilty from the question.

Also, since when giving employees the power to get better wages is bad?

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sen8or

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#2703407 7-May-2021 14:02

Just calling it like I see it....

When did employees not have the power to get better wages? Last I checked, we aren't in forced labour, employment is on a voluntary basis between employer and employee, free to negotiate (within the limits of the law) terms like pay rate, leave, entitlements etc and collective bargaining already exists on an employer by employer basis.

freitasm

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#2703409 7-May-2021 14:06

sen8or:

Just calling it like I see it....

So instead of posting a loaded question go for the direct statement, as you see it.

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wellygary

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#2703422 7-May-2021 14:42

freitasm:

The seems like a loaded question from the start - assuming guilty from the question.

Also, since when giving employees the power to get better wages is bad?

Improving employee is one thing, but this is a pretty big sledge hammer...

Potentially as an employee you could have your employment agreement changed based on negotiations/arbitration between a Union you are not a member of and then you will legally loose your the right to strike. or take any other industrial action?? - all without any required consent or agreement by you....

161 Once in force, FPAs will apply to all employees and employers within coverage (ie in a particular occupation or industry). This means there will likely be employers and employees bound by the terms of an FPA negotiated by unions or employer organisations they are not affiliated with.

164 The FPA system does not require bargaining sides to demonstrate their ability to represent employers and employees within coverage, beyond having at least one member within coverage of the proposed FPA. This engages rights and obligations related to freedom of association. Employees are required to be represented by unions, even if they are not a member or if they would prefer a different entity to represent them, or to represent themselves.

166 Once FPA bargaining has been initiated, the intention is that an FPA will result, either through successful ratification, or by having its terms fixed by the ER Authority. Initiation also only requires assent from employees—employers do not have a say.

167 The FPA system allows the ER Authority to fix FPA terms if bargaining sides cannot agree, with a significantly lower threshold for triggering this than exists under the ER Act. This could be seen to amount to compulsory arbitration

and on the other hand

159 Cabinet previously decided (CAB-18-MIN-0100 refers) that industrial action would be prohibited within the FPA system. This aspect of any FPA legislation will engage the right to strike and be inconsistent with ILO Convention 87.

https://www.mbie.govt.nz/dmsdocument/14297-fair-pay-agreements-approval-to-draft-proactiverelease-pdf

Handle9

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#2703426 7-May-2021 14:59

sen8or:

Just calling it like I see it....

When did employees not have the power to get better wages? Last I checked, we aren't in forced labour, employment is on a voluntary basis between employer and employee, free to negotiate (within the limits of the law) terms like pay rate, leave, entitlements etc and collective bargaining already exists on an employer by employer basis.

You are being pretty disingenuous at this point. The power balance between employers and employees is incredibly weighted towards employers, especially in low wage industries. You can see this in the total absence of wage growth, outside of legislated minimum wage growth.

This system has been in Australia for some time and seems to work reasonably well.

Fred99

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#2703548 7-May-2021 18:52

wellygary:

Improving employee is one thing, but this is a pretty big sledge hammer...

Potentially as an employee you could have your employment agreement changed based on negotiations/arbitration between a Union you are not a member of and then you will legally loose your the right to strike. or take any other industrial action?? - all without any required consent or agreement by you....

Individual strike action doesn't happen, so an individual's "right to strike" or "right to take industrial action" is unchanged - it's more normally called "resigning". I'd assume that any negative impact from a collective contract where you'd enjoyed better than that minimum, you'd be protected by normal employment law anyway. Last time I was in a union - a long time ago - I was surely paid more than union minimum rates.

Unions made America great. When workers could finally afford to buy the products they were making, the economy boomed.

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Handle9

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#2703570 7-May-2021 21:13

It'd also be nice if National didn't attack this with outright lies. I guess that's too much to help for from those clueless morons.

Batman

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#2703632 8-May-2021 10:25

Handle9: It'd also be nice if National didn't attack this with outright lies. I guess that's too much to help for from those clueless morons.

All politians lie. Some lies are loved and some lies are hated.

antonknee

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#2705508 10-May-2021 13:56

This is a great move - the Employment Contracts Act 1991 frankly screwed workers, and this is moving the balance back to where it should be. The FPA-style model has worked to fantastic success in Australia, delivering a good base to work from but still allowing unions or individuals to negotiate better than the award and continuing to allow flexibility in individual arrangements. Australians enjoy much higher wages and their award system is a massive part of this.

sen8or:

When did employees not have the power to get better wages? Last I checked, we aren't in forced labour, employment is on a voluntary basis between employer and employee, free to negotiate (within the limits of the law) terms like pay rate, leave, entitlements etc and collective bargaining already exists on an employer by employer basis.

This is incredibly naive - sure, in theory.

1101

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#2705578 10-May-2021 16:19

Why not just be honest about it and increase the min wage to what the govt thinks it should be .

Im not saying that a good idea, but thats the honest way to do it rather than this scheme to try & force industry wide wage increases .

Fred99

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#2705788 10-May-2021 21:50

1101:

Why not just be honest about it and increase the min wage to what the govt thinks it should be .

Im not saying that a good idea, but thats the honest way to do it rather than this scheme to try & force industry wide wage increases .

It is a good idea - which is probably why they're doing that as well.

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Handle9

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#2705791 10-May-2021 21:59

1101:

Why not just be honest about it and increase the min wage to what the govt thinks it should be .

Im not saying that a good idea, but thats the honest way to do it rather than this scheme to try & force industry wide wage increases .

This isn't about the minimum wage. It's about reasonable wage growth across the board and making it possible for "average" people to afford outlandish things like houses.

The promises of a wide open labour market definitely hasn't trickled down so it's reasonable to look at other models which may produce a better result.

It may also start to address some of the productivity problems New Zealand has. At the moment the efficient way to grow many businesses is to add lowly paid labour. Making labour more expensive incentivises investment in technology and automation, which in turn incentivises economic growth.

sen8or

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#2705858 11-May-2021 09:27

Handle9:

It may also start to address some of the productivity problems New Zealand has. At the moment the efficient way to grow many businesses is to add lowly paid labour. Making labour more expensive incentivises investment in technology and automation, which in turn incentivises economic growth.

Which then reduces employment creating an even greater divide between the haves and the have nots. Look at supermarkets for example, the increase in self serve checkouts, how many of those would have previously been filled by actual humans had it not been (at least in part in my opinion) for the forced increases over the last few years on the cost of labour? Far fewer jobs on offer and these were frequently a teenagers "first job", what is the incentive now for them to hire a fresh out of nappies teenager with zero work experience and pay them $20/hour?

sen8or

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#2705861 11-May-2021 09:33

Fred99:

1101:

Why not just be honest about it and increase the min wage to what the govt thinks it should be .

Im not saying that a good idea, but thats the honest way to do it rather than this scheme to try & force industry wide wage increases .

It is a good idea - which is probably why they're doing that as well.

Yes, a bunch of politicians with zero actual real world business experience are a great bunch to decide what the value of labour actually is.......

antonknee

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#2705863 11-May-2021 09:41

sen8or:

Which then reduces employment creating an even greater divide between the haves and the have nots. Look at supermarkets for example, the increase in self serve checkouts, how many of those would have previously been filled by actual humans had it not been (at least in part in my opinion) for the forced increases over the last few years on the cost of labour? Far fewer jobs on offer and these were frequently a teenagers "first job", what is the incentive now for them to hire a fresh out of nappies teenager with zero work experience and pay them $20/hour?

You do realise that (generally) this is actually not a reduction in employment - this labour gets redeployed to other tasks. I am intimately familiar with four separate retail businesses who have put in self checkouts but and deployed this labour to other tasks, for example handling online orders.

You may also be interested to know that Countdown (as an example) pay above minimum for a lot of store roles and so are insulated from minimum wage increases.

In any case, some businesses and smart people realise there are benefits to employing people and that your employees are not just a drain on the bank account - unless you're an idiot manager, the calculation is a little more detailed than '$20/hour'.

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