Taliban move to form an 'open, inclusive Islamic government'

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#2761201 16-Aug-2021 22:22

Well its a testament to the maintenance crews that we are planning to send a C130 up there on Wednesday.
Considering chaos there at the moment, by Wednesday, Thursday will there be anywhere to land ?

It would be somewhat historic if the C130 was the one that took our last troops out of Vietnam.
https://nzdefenceforce.medium.com/hercules-flies-vietnam-war-veterans-down-memory-lane-ce1be16e9b4e

Maybe we will actually go to a USA/NATO base in area and pick people up that USA has airlifted ?
Seems risky as hell as some of the people we want to get out, who helped us, would be seen by Taliban as prime revenge targets ?
Surely we won't be going to Kabul ?

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018808448/afghanistan-deployment-by-wednesday-earliest-defence-minister

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#2761203 16-Aug-2021 22:32

Rikkitic:

I haven't been to Afghanistan, but from media reports, which are probably at least partially accurate, the Taliban seem like the most backward, atavistic, appalling, medieval, fundamentalist murdering fanatics on the planet. I have no regard whatsoever for them and their primitive superstitious beliefs.

Yet they have continuous substantial support. All those bearded gun-toting pickup-riding barbarians come from somewhere, and they don't look like they are being coerced. The fact that they still exist in big numbers a generation later says something about their appeal to and support from the general populace. Maybe not the women so much, but certainly the other beards.

They are overrunning the country because the people they want to rule do not see them as a worse option. Do as you are told, dress the way they demand, stay out of the way, keep your mouth shut, show up at prayers, and you are probably okay. Just don't insist on free speech.

The worst thing about all this is how completely the Americans have learned nothing at all from their recent history. Afghanistan is a rerun of corrupt Latin American dictatorships being propped up for self-serving political gains. It is a repeat of South Vietnam, also a corrupt regime supported for being anti-communist. American policy-makers look only at their own perceived short-term interests, and to hell with the people and what might actually be in their interests.

in the western world, it's about me -in the sense of what can i get to make me happy. i go to work, make some money, i will buy a tesla. i feel happy.

in the eastern world, it's about mana. honour. they'd rather die than being told what to do by a foreigner (American). they'd rather kill their daughter than lose face/respect in that they cannot control their daughter.

a bit like low socioeconomics and gangs and how it's a vicious cycle

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#2761204 16-Aug-2021 22:33

Batman:
Rikkitic:

I haven't been to Afghanistan, but from media reports, which are probably at least partially accurate, the Taliban seem like the most backward, atavistic, appalling, medieval, fundamentalist murdering fanatics on the planet. I have no regard whatsoever for them and their primitive superstitious beliefs.

Yet they have continuous substantial support. All those bearded gun-toting pickup-riding barbarians come from somewhere, and they don't look like they are being coerced. The fact that they still exist in big numbers a generation later says something about their appeal to and support from the general populace. Maybe not the women so much, but certainly the other beards.

They are overrunning the country because the people they want to rule do not see them as a worse option. Do as you are told, dress the way they demand, stay out of the way, keep your mouth shut, show up at prayers, and you are probably okay. Just don't insist on free speech.

The worst thing about all this is how completely the Americans have learned nothing at all from their recent history. Afghanistan is a rerun of corrupt Latin American dictatorships being propped up for self-serving political gains. It is a repeat of South Vietnam, also a corrupt regime supported for being anti-communist. American policy-makers look only at their own perceived short-term interests, and to hell with the people and what might actually be in their interests.

in the western world, it's about me -in the sense of what can i get to make me happy. i go to work, make some money, i will buy a tesla. i feel happy.

in the eastern world, it's about mana. honour. they'd rather die than being told what to do by a foreigner (American). they'd rather kill their daughter than lose face/respect in that they cannot control their daughter.

How much time have you spent in central Asia?

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#2761205 16-Aug-2021 22:34

half my life.

though the rich are like westerners. but only on the outside.

Handle9

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#2761206 16-Aug-2021 22:36

Batman:
half my life

I'd have expected you to pickup a bit more of the culture than you have.

The culture is ancient and quite different from the cookie cutter version you are portraying.

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#2761207 16-Aug-2021 22:38

let me tell you a secret. when you as a foreigner meet with a local you see a front. a mask. behind your back it's a different story.

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#2761208 16-Aug-2021 22:39

Batman:
let me tell you a secret. when you as a foreigner meet with a local you see a front. a mask. behind your back it's a different story.

How's that different to New Zealand?

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Fred99

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#2761212 16-Aug-2021 23:16

TOLOnews has been posting videos on twitter of complete chaos at Kabul airport, hordes of people trying to cling on to USAF planes as they're taxiing to the runway, people falling from planes in the air after they've taken off.

OTOH they report that Taliban entered the TOLOnews compound in Kabul, checked the weapons of the security staff, collected govt-issued weapons, agreed to keep the compound safe.

Dreadful situation.

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#2761224 17-Aug-2021 03:14

We will send 40 troops to help evacuate a few people. Hmm... I wish them all the best

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/16/new-zealand-to-deploy-troops-to-aid-citizens-evacuation-from-afghanistan

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#2761226 17-Aug-2021 03:22

networkn

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#2761250 17-Aug-2021 08:50

Forgetting the reason the US was there in the first place, and whether it was right, wrong or in between, we are where we are... Was the US supposed to stay there forever to stop the Taliban from taking over? They trained local forces for 20 years, and within a day, Taliban had almost complete control.

Call me naïve, but, if they chose not to fight them, then have they not decided to just accept the Taliban as the new leadership for better or worse? Don't get me wrong there are obviously some scared people and a number who are in real danger, and some of the pictures and videos are disturbing, but pretty much every coup is done like this. Eventually, will they not find a equilibrium? I think I always find when you try and apply western cultural behaviours to middle eastern or central Asian countries, there is going to be huge disparity.

It's not that I don't feel sympathy for the people who suffer in these circumstances, however, what are the realistic alternatives?

Fred99

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#2761256 17-Aug-2021 09:13

networkn:

It's not that I don't feel sympathy for the people who suffer in these circumstances, however, what are the realistic alternatives?

There are none.

If the Taliban (now in control of the assets and probably most of the personnel of the former government Army) wanted to prevent people from leaving by air, they'd have already done so. Kabul airport has one runway.

Preventing foreigners from leaving, thus effectively keeping them "hostage" would not have a good short or long-term outcome.

Imran Khan: "It is harder to throw off the chains of cultural enslavement. What is happening in Afghanistan now, they have broken the shackles of slavery"

I assume that comments like that are based on hope that the Taliban government won't be isolationist, they claim that they want to transform to a peaceful Islamic emirate, maintaining trade relations with neighbouring states will be crucial.

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#2761262 17-Aug-2021 09:21

Fred99:

There are none.

If the Taliban (now in control of the assets and probably most of the personnel of the former government Army) wanted to prevent people from leaving by air, they'd have already done so. Kabul airport has one runway.

Preventing foreigners from leaving, thus effectively keeping them "hostage" would not have a good short or long-term outcome.

I wasn't referring to stopping the US from leaving, I am saying eventually, the US was going to leave, staying forever so that the Taliban wouldn't take over wasn't realistic. 20 years of training... Afghans chose to let the Taliban take over I think.

It is possible the Taliban do convert Afghanistan into a peaceful Islamic Nation, let's hope so, but I suspect, there will be suffering for some/many while the authority is established. It's very likely westerners will disagree about how it's been handled.

Rikkitic

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#2761286 17-Aug-2021 10:02

networkn:

Fred99:

There are none.

If the Taliban (now in control of the assets and probably most of the personnel of the former government Army) wanted to prevent people from leaving by air, they'd have already done so. Kabul airport has one runway.

Preventing foreigners from leaving, thus effectively keeping them "hostage" would not have a good short or long-term outcome.

I wasn't referring to stopping the US from leaving, I am saying eventually, the US was going to leave, staying forever so that the Taliban wouldn't take over wasn't realistic. 20 years of training... Afghans chose to let the Taliban take over I think.

It is possible the Taliban do convert Afghanistan into a peaceful Islamic Nation, let's hope so, but I suspect, there will be suffering for some/many while the authority is established. It's very likely westerners will disagree about how it's been handled.

Aren't you a little quick to forget how the Taliban behaved the last time they were in charge? There are cultural norms and there are civilised norms. Some things are wrong regardless of the lens you view them through. I just hope this new generation is more moderate than the last one. There is nothing wrong with a conservative Islamic state if that is what people accept. There is a lot wrong with another ISIS-style murder and beheading regime.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Fred99

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#2761288 17-Aug-2021 10:06

networkn:

Fred99:

There are none.

If the Taliban (now in control of the assets and probably most of the personnel of the former government Army) wanted to prevent people from leaving by air, they'd have already done so. Kabul airport has one runway.

Preventing foreigners from leaving, thus effectively keeping them "hostage" would not have a good short or long-term outcome.

I wasn't referring to stopping the US from leaving, I am saying eventually, the US was going to leave, staying forever so that the Taliban wouldn't take over wasn't realistic. 20 years of training... Afghans chose to let the Taliban take over I think.

It is possible the Taliban do convert Afghanistan into a peaceful Islamic Nation, let's hope so, but I suspect, there will be suffering for some/many while the authority is established. It's very likely westerners will disagree about how it's been handled.

Yep. The Taliban leadership is at this stage saying the *right things - and appear to be doing the *right things.

*"right things" only within the bounds of the form of sharia they will impose. Presumably accurate reports that they have already ordered women home from all workplaces.

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