Has Wokeism Gone Too Far Too Fast?

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Rikkitic

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#2839945 29-Dec-2021 12:53

I think you are trying to create a false equivalence. The problem today is not on the left. In the 1970s left-wing extremists in Europe and America were kidnapping and murdering establishment figures and blowing up buildings. Extremism is extremism, however you dress it up. But these days the left is not where the problem lies. The left is not the source of armed militants trying to kidnap and execute governors and overthrow the government. The left is not sowing doubt and undermining faith in the electoral process. The left is not disenfranchising voters and trying to invalidate ballots. Those problems are all well on the right. If you are looking for things that need fixing, fix those first and then worry about a few left-wing slogans.

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Paul1977

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#2839999 29-Dec-2021 17:33

Rikkitic:

I think you are trying to create a false equivalence. The problem today is not on the left. In the 1970s left-wing extremists in Europe and America were kidnapping and murdering establishment figures and blowing up buildings. Extremism is extremism, however you dress it up. But these days the left is not where the problem lies. The left is not the source of armed militants trying to kidnap and execute governors and overthrow the government. The left is not sowing doubt and undermining faith in the electoral process. The left is not disenfranchising voters and trying to invalidate ballots. Those problems are all well on the right. If you are looking for things that need fixing, fix those first and then worry about a few left-wing slogans.

False equivalency, I don’t think so. I didn’t say “they’re each as bad as the other”. What I said was that the left aren’t entirely blame free. Things aren’t as simple as left=good right=bad.

As far as fixing the very real problems you cited, how is the left going about it? By telling everyone who votes Republican they’re the issue? You don’t see that as a problem?

I agree that the biggest threats are on the right, but the left are failing to find an effective solution. The 2016 election was not won by Republicans, it was lost by Democrats. The 2020 election was far closer than it should have been for the same reason. I’ve predicted it before, and I’ll do it again now, the Democrats will lose the White House again in 2024.

The biggest threats are on the right, so it’s the left’s job to convince people to support them so they can implement change and prevent those threats from becoming reality. They are doing a poor job indeed, and until people admit how much of a problem that is it won’t change.

People seem to have forgotten that you can support something, but be critical of it at the same time.

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#2840039 29-Dec-2021 20:12

Paul1977: Your bolded comment is exactly the sort of statement that drives moderate right-leaning people further away from the left.

After the torrential downpour of feces that was the Trump presidency I personally don't think that there are many moderates left in the GOP or vote for the GOP.

Either they support the undermining of democracy and womens and voting rights or they don't. As that is what the establishment GOP are doing right now and have been saying the quiet bit out loud for a while now to desensitise their voting base to the shift to authoritarian rule.

Paul1977: The pro-life camp will say it's about protecting the life of the fetus. I'm 100% pro-choice, but I tend to believe the intent of the pro-lifers actually stems from the latter because of the much larger Christian leanings on the right; with the suppression of a woman's rights being a consequence (rather than the goal).

I also disagree with the above, since if you are pro-life then you are pro actual life not just gestation, support for the life of the child, support for the mother. And abortions have happened since the beginning of time, it's either a safe medical procedure in a hospital or a coat hanger and pro-lifer folks need to chose which they prefer.

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#2840292 30-Dec-2021 09:03

BarTender:

Paul1977: The pro-life camp will say it's about protecting the life of the fetus. I'm 100% pro-choice, but I tend to believe the intent of the pro-lifers actually stems from the latter because of the much larger Christian leanings on the right; with the suppression of a woman's rights being a consequence (rather than the goal).

I also disagree with the above, since if you are pro-life then you are pro actual life not just gestation, support for the life of the child, support for the mother. And abortions have happened since the beginning of time, it's either a safe medical procedure in a hospital or a coat hanger and pro-lifer folks need to chose which they prefer.

Yep. Considering "pro-life" in the USA does not support parental leave, contraception and family planning, free health for kids, education, food then I suspect they are all a bunch of hypocrites who just want to maintain their own status.

But we also know they vote against themselves.

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freitasm

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#2840295 30-Dec-2021 09:08

I will post a story that happened this week and feels me with shame about my convictions because I did not act.

I was at Countdown Johnsonville getting something for day after Boxing Day. Walking around I saw an older man doing his shopping. His arms were covered in nazi symbols including the swastika and SS bolts.

I was about to confront him but thought "what if this is his past life and he had those tattoos as a reminder of his shit deeds?"

It is not like he was spouting anything, or creating problems so I let it go.

Ten minutes later when I am walking out of the supermarket, a young woman was confronting him. Saying how bad the ideology he spoused is. His response? "Stop pestering me. Death!"

So yes, I am ashamed because I should have supported that woman.

That's not being woke. That's knowing the shit this kind of people are.

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Rikkitic

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#2840304 30-Dec-2021 09:18

freitasm:

That's not being woke. That's knowing the shit this kind of people are.

There is the principle, and then there is the reality. You can't ever know how someone like that might react, especially if affected by drugs. Even here in New Zealand there have been random acts of extreme violence against innocent people. It is important to stand up for what is right, but you also have to weigh the risks of doing so. Will your family be okay without you?

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Paul1977

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#2840328 30-Dec-2021 10:06

BarTender:

After the torrential downpour of feces that was the Trump presidency I personally don't think that there are many moderates left in the GOP or vote for the GOP.

OK, so you're making two propositions here:

There aren't are many moderates left in the GOP.
There aren't many moderates left who vote for the GOP.

A strong case could certainly be made for 1, at least if you're talking about the upper levels of the GOP. I think you're very mistaken about 2 though. If there are few moderate voters left, where did they go? They clearly haven't shifted left based on polls, so the only other option is they have all shifted to the far right. Even assuming that's the case, it's up to the left to try to pull them back closer to the centre - and they aren't doing it, they don't even seem to be trying. You don't increase your base by only preaching to the choir.

Paul1977

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#2840329 30-Dec-2021 10:07

BarTender: Either they support the undermining of democracy and womens and voting rights or they don't.

That's a gross oversimplification. What if the only party that fully supports women's rights in all facets also believes that gender is strictly defined by biological sex and anything else is a mental illness? You can say that's a silly example, but only because it's pushing things to the extreme to demonstrate a point. The ethical quandary is still there even with less extreme examples.

BarTender: I also disagree with the above, since if you are pro-life then you are pro actual life not just gestation, support for the life of the child, support for the mother. And abortions have happened since the beginning of time, it's either a safe medical procedure in a hospital or a coat hanger and pro-lifer folks need to chose which they prefer.

The obvious argument that can be used against that is that one persons right to life outweighs another persons right to choice. In isolation that sounds like a reasonable argument. The disagreement comes from differing definitions of "person" and "life".

In the real world things are seldom binary, but both sides of the aisle treat them like they are - but more importantly they convince the voters of it. If you're not with us, you're against us. All your problems are the other party's fault.

Hate, fear, and polarisation is a strategy that's more successful for the right than the left. The left won't win that fight, so THEY need to be smarter, THEY need to make a change. Don't highlight how different you are, highlight how much you have in common. Don't dismiss someone as ignorant, think about how you can engage with them and find some common ground. Educate without condescending and shaming.

Paul1977

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#2840332 30-Dec-2021 10:18

freitasm:

I will post a story that happened this week and feels me with shame about my convictions because I did not act.

I was at Countdown Johnsonville getting something for day after Boxing Day. Walking around I saw an older man doing his shopping. His arms were covered in nazi symbols including the swastika and SS bolts.

I was about to confront him but thought "what if this is his past life and he had those tattoos as a reminder of his shit deeds?"

It is not like he was spouting anything, or creating problems so I let it go.

Ten minutes later when I am walking out of the supermarket, a young woman was confronting him. Saying how bad the ideology he spoused is. His response? "Stop pestering me. Death!"

So yes, I am ashamed because I should have supported that woman.

That's not being woke. That's knowing the shit this kind of people are.

Most right leaning people are against Nazis as well. Being against Nazis isn't something that should be dialed back, and I don't think any reasonable person would suggest otherwise.

If in the US that person would undoubtedly vote Republican. But because Nazis vote Republican, it doesn't follow that all people who vote Republican are Nazis (or even sympathetic to Nazis).

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#2840338 30-Dec-2021 10:37

The discussion is about wokeism and I gave a real event that could be seen as wokeism happening here around my neighburhood.

In no moment I mentioned Republicans or right-wing in that story.

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Paul1977

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#2840400 30-Dec-2021 11:20

freitasm: The discussion is about wokeism and I gave a real event that could be seen as wokeism happening here around my house.

In no moment I mentioned Republicans or right-wing in that story.

Fair enough. The discussion had moved quite heavily into that realm and I, perhaps inappropriately, applied your event to that. Apologies.

Looking at the situation you mentioned, however you might define what "woke" means, speaking out against Nazis isn't an example any reasonable person would define as "wokeism" or "wokeness" going too far - at least I don't think so.

I think your initial reaction was the correct one. Not because saying something is "too woke", but because you realised you didn't know that persons story - the movie "American History X" immediately springs to mind, and gave them the benefit of the doubt. And as @Rikkitic pointed out, you do have to think about your personal safety because the likelihood was he was a Nazi who wouldn't appreciate being confronted.

Was the young lady wrong to confront him? I actually don't know. From a risk/reward perspective it certainly wasn't very smart - she placed herself in potential danger with an essentially 0% chance of changing the man's views. If the goal wasn't to change his mind, but just let him know he's a piece of shit, then I don't see a lot of productive value in that either. On the other hand, if no one ever says anything then we're in real trouble. The trick is finding the the most effective time and place I suppose, but what/when that is I'm really not sure.

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BarTender

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#2840408 30-Dec-2021 11:44

Paul1977: A strong case could certainly be made for 1, at least if you're talking about the upper levels of the GOP. I think you're very mistaken about 2 though. If there are few moderate voters left, where did they go? They clearly haven't shifted left based on polls, so the only other option is they have all shifted to the far right. Even assuming that's the case, it's up to the left to try to pull them back closer to the centre - and they aren't doing it, they don't even seem to be trying. You don't increase your base by only preaching to the choir.

Politics isn't really left vs right when looking at the US vs NZ. The US the Democrats are centre right by policies of other similar OECD countries, and certainly to the right of National when it comes to fairly accepted things like universal basic healthcare, abortion rights, taxes etc. When looking at the Republicans they are extreme right even further than ACT in regards to policy. There is no significant left wing political party within the US

My view of the concept of a moderate / independent voter is they deserted the GOP last election, and the remaining GOP voters will "always vote GOP as they have always done so and will continue irrespective of what the GOP do" which represents 30% of the population aka "The Base". Also right leaning folks will always vote whereas voter apathy and suppression of left and moderate folks has always been a significant proportion of US government.

The thing the US has that NZ doesn't is very well funded media organisations such as Fox and to the further right OAN that have no legal or moral guidelines to accurately report information. So there is a constant flow of anger fueled disinformation being consumed by a non-trivial section of US society.

We thankfully don't have that in NZ, not from want of trying from fringe groups here and we also have a uniform levels of education across society and overall trust in central and local government to do the right thing, since if they don't they will be voted out.

Paul1977

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#2840418 30-Dec-2021 11:58

BarTender:

Politics isn't really left vs right when looking at the US vs NZ. The US the Democrats are centre right by policies of other similar OECD countries, and certainly to the right of National when it comes to fairly accepted things like universal basic healthcare, abortion rights, taxes etc. When looking at the Republicans they are extreme right even further than ACT in regards to policy. There is no significant left wing political party within the US

My view of the concept of a moderate / independent voter is they deserted the GOP last election, and the remaining GOP voters will "always vote GOP as they have always done so and will continue irrespective of what the GOP do" which represents 30% of the population aka "The Base". Also right leaning folks will always vote whereas voter apathy and suppression of left and moderate folks has always been a significant proportion of US government.

The thing the US has that NZ doesn't is very well funded media organisations such as Fox and to the further right OAN that have no legal or moral guidelines to accurately report information. So there is a constant flow of anger fueled disinformation being consumed by a non-trivial section of US society.

We thankfully don't have that in NZ, not from want of trying from fringe groups here and we also have a uniform levels of education across society and overall trust in central and local government to do the right thing, since if they don't they will be voted out.

I agree with almost all of that. Except that if the moderate voter has deserted the GOP why isn't it reflected in polls or recent elections results like the Virginia Governor race?

I was just reading about "Thermostatic Backlash", which is what is shown to happen when the incumbent party (of either side) tries to change things faster than the general public is ready for. I see no reason why this phenomenon would be confined to just political parties, why wouldn't it also apply to peoples opinions of what they perceive as the "Radical Left" or the "Cultural Elite" etc. Perhaps that's what I really meant by going "too far, too fast".

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