Has Wokeism Gone Too Far Too Fast?

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Forums › Politics › Has Wokeism Gone Too Far Too Fast?

Paul1977

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#293013 21-Dec-2021 11:08

Pretty much as the title says.

It seems to me there's a very vocal minority that want the entire world to very quickly shift to their ideals, and anyone who isn't immediately fully onboard they label as one of the many "ists". In their view their is only right or wrong, their way or the highway; but the real world isn't that simple.

Additionally, whatever they deem as right and wrong right now must be retroactively applied to past events and actions.

I'm hoping this can be a serious and civil discussion that doesn't devolve immediately into two sides calling each others names.

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#2836278 21-Dec-2021 11:40

If you want this to be a serious discussion, you have to start by defining precisely what you mean by 'wokeism'. Otherwise you are just slinging a catch-all label around that means whatever anyone wants it to mean.

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#2836316 21-Dec-2021 13:12

Rikkitic:

If you want this to be a serious discussion, you have to start by defining precisely what you mean by 'wokeism'. Otherwise you are just slinging a catch-all label around that means whatever anyone wants it to mean.

Correct. I'd go so far as to say that "woke" has been coopted by right-wing conservative talkshow hosts and politicians to mean "anything I disagree with coming from the left side of the aisle".

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Paul1977

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#2836462 21-Dec-2021 17:03

Forget the terminology then, that's just arguing semantics.

I think everyone is well aware politics (I'm thinking primarily the USA) has become more partisan than ever before, and those on the left of the aisle lay the blame squarely on Trump and the GOP being further to the right than ever before. Trump and the GOP have done a lot of damage, no arguing that. But why are they still so incredibly popular? I don't believe it's because half of American's are racist bigots.

The question needs to be asked what is happening on the other side of the aisle that is contributing to so many ordinary people to continue to support the GOP against their own best interests?

A big part of it is the very vocal "progressive" left who do indeed target those who don't 100% share their views. "Cancel culture" isn't a myth made up by Republicans. A recent example is the "outrage" at Dave Chapelle's last Netflix special. I personally didn't find most of it particularly funny, but I also didn't think he came across as bigoted against the trans community either - a good deal of the special was about his trans friend.

Common sense, second chances, and forgiveness are in short supply on both sides - and it's a shame everything seems to be defined in "sides" at all.

Here's a test. Anyone on this forum who has chosen not to contribute to a discussion here for fear of being mistaken for (or accused of being) one of the "ists", please like this post.

gzt

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#2836476 21-Dec-2021 18:46

Most of what you outline above is all about American politics and tv entertainment. Fox talk vs Cnn talk.

Paul1977

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#2836594 22-Dec-2021 08:49

gzt: Most of what you outline above is all about American politics and tv entertainment. Fox talk vs Cnn talk.

Probably, but that all has a flow on effect into social media which obviously has a huge global audience.

Any way, the lack of even a single +1 on my above post suggests that my perception of this may be skewed from ingesting too much US based "news" content. Move along, nothing to see here.

BarTender

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#2839749 29-Dec-2021 06:52

I missed this but I love the term woke as it gets thrown around by right wing individuals with the implications of it being a slur when the reality is society is changing and things that were tolerated in the past are no longer and right wingers are having a hard time changing as there could be the implication they are no longer the privileged.

Is using the N word acceptable anymore or other slurs? No

Calling someone by their name rather than using a slur they find offensive or a name they no longer recognise such an imposition to be polite? It’s not that hard to do.

I could go on with many more social change but those two are hot button things for right wing folks.

Also it’s not a “both sides” thing especially in the US. One side aka the majority of society just wants to be treated with at least a little bit of respect. The GOP and Conservative movement want to hold onto power with any means possible using techniques not limited to killing people, removing their ability to even get safe healthcare if they can afford it or creating significant barriers to prevent them from voting.

How is it that a political party who represents around 30% of the population wield so much power?

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#2839799 29-Dec-2021 09:19

BarTender:

How is it that a political party who represents around 30% of the population wield so much power?

Because a large proportion of the population don't give a s**t who's running the show. Their everyday existence is a mind numbingly desperate struggle no matter who's in power and that never changes.

Left, right, center or whatever has no impact on the lives of these people.

Paul1977

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#2839810 29-Dec-2021 10:06

BarTender: I missed this but I love the term woke as it gets thrown around by right wing individuals with the implications of it being a slur when the reality is society is changing and things that were tolerated in the past are no longer and right wingers are having a hard time changing as there could be the implication they are no longer the privileged.

Is using the N word acceptable anymore or other slurs? No

Calling someone by their name rather than using a slur they find offensive or a name they no longer recognise such an imposition to be polite? It’s not that hard to do.

I could go on with many more social change but those two are hot button things for right wing folks.

Also it’s not a “both sides” thing especially in the US. One side aka the majority of society just wants to be treated with at least a little bit of respect. The GOP and Conservative movement want to hold onto power with any means possible using techniques not limited to killing people, removing their ability to even get safe healthcare if they can afford it or creating significant barriers to prevent them from voting.

How is it that a political party who represents around 30% of the population wield so much power?

I strongly disagree that not being able to use the N word, or other slurs, is a "hot button" topic among the right. The fact that this is no longer acceptable is, I think, considered by the vast majority as a good thing.

As for the rest, I think you've missed the point I was trying to make (it's very possible I simply didn't articulate it well). Don't make the mistake of interpreting criticism of the means as criticism of the desired ends.

Let's consider the goals. For the most part I think the most of the right, the left, and even the "radical" left share many of the same goals - more acceptance of everyone and equal opportunities. The left push those goals more to the fore, but I don't think most of the right see the goals themselves as a bad thing. The outliers here would be the "extreme" right. Obviously there are a lot of differences in policy between the left and right, but despite the rhetoric of politicians and the media, the "average Joe" Democrat and Republican probably agree on where the goal posts should be more than they disagree.

But then we come to how to achieve the goals. That's where I question how the more "extreme" and vocal left are proceeding - which is I think faster than the average citizen can keep up; and it seems that often those who don't jump on the train immediately are called ignorant, phobic, or racist by the "extreme" left. This pushes moderates further to the right, because they think this small vocal group on the left represent the left as a whole - and they don't like what the see as condescension and bullying. And a big problem is the rest of the left don't say anything because they're afraid of being labelled as phobic or racist themselves if they do.

Are the policies of the "extreme" left more dangerous than the "extreme" right? Certainly not. But in a very real way, they hurt their own cause more than they help it.

There are also massive problems with what the right are doing, but they already get enough attention and (justified) criticism that I don't need to repeat it all here.

Now I'm sitting here in NZ, looking at all this through the lens of American media, with algorithms feeding me content that enforces pre-conceptions I don't even know I have - but to the best of my ability I do try to view arguments from different viewpoints. And more often than not, I'm seeing any criticism of the methods of the more "extreme" left being pounced on as disagreeing with the goals - and that's a problem.

EDIT: removed video as it was talking mainly about racial policies, and (in retrospect) I didn't want that to become the sole focus of any further discussion as can easily happen.

BarTender

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#2839814 29-Dec-2021 10:12

SJB: Because a large proportion of the population don't give a s**t who's running the show. Their everyday existence is a mind numbingly desperate struggle no matter who's in power and that never changes.

Left, right, center or whatever has no impact on the lives of these people.

If that were actually the case in the US then why is the extreme right GOP party working so hard to disenfranchise and suppress voter turnout? If they had the support of the populous then winning the majority of votes should be easy, however much like the centre right party in NZ their ideals as policy goals do not align to the vast majority of society so will use whatever means possible to maintain power and control.

BarTender

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#2839818 29-Dec-2021 10:24

Paul1977: For the most part I think the most of the right, the left, and even the "radical" left share many of the same goals - more acceptance of everyone and equal opportunities.

I can only strongly disagree with this statement. The left are working towards equality, the right especially those in government at the majority of levels are fighting with every ounce of their being to maintain the status quo.

The right is quite content and accepting of the murder of innocent individuals and the ongoing suppression of whoever isn't aligned to the idology.

My personal view is I see little difference between the modern day GOP and the ideals of the Taliban.

I know it may sound extremists rhetoric but I think in it's simplest form do you honestly believe that the GOP would not ban abortion outright if they could for everyone except the wealthy? As I have no doubt if they could get away with it they would.

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#2839891 29-Dec-2021 11:12

BarTender:

I can only strongly disagree with this statement. The left are working towards equality, the right especially those in government at the majority of levels are fighting with every ounce of their being to maintain the status quo.

The right is quite content and accepting of the murder of innocent individuals and the ongoing suppression of whoever isn't aligned to the idology.

My personal view is I see little difference between the modern day GOP and the ideals of the Taliban.

I know it may sound extremists rhetoric but I think in it's simplest form do you honestly believe that the GOP would not ban abortion outright if they could for everyone except the wealthy? As I have no doubt if they could get away with it they would.

I'm talking about everyday people who consider themselves right-leaning, not politicians who'll twist things to fit a narrative that wins votes. Your bolded comment is exactly the sort of statement that drives moderate right-leaning people further away from the left. Even if we accepted the statement as true (which I don't), is saying it the best way to convince those on the right to vote Democrat? I often wonder how many people voted Trump not because they supported him, but rather because they felt vilified by the left.

Abortion is an interesting one, as it's framed very differently depending on the side you ask. The pro-choice camp will normally tell you it's about suppressing a woman's reproductive rights, the pro-life camp will say it's about protecting the life of the fetus. I'm 100% pro-choice, but I tend to believe the intent of the pro-lifers actually stems from the latter because of the much larger Christian leanings on the right; with the suppression of a woman's rights being a consequence (rather than the goal).

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Rikkitic

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#2839914 29-Dec-2021 11:47

Are you talking about New Zealand, America, the entire world? I assume you are mainly drawing on America as an example. If that is correct, you are missing a very big and essential point. That is that the conservative perspective of ordinary, everyday people has been entirely hijacked by Fox news, which truly is an evil empire. More than any other single force, Fox has been responsible for dividing America and making it impossible for people there to find common ground in shared principles. It is a parasitic cancer destroying from within. It has elevated lying and disinformation to an art form that would have made Goebbels drool with envy. It is the prime enabler of criminals like Trump and those determined to destroy the Republican party and the American system of democratic free and fair elections. Wokeism is a bullshit flag waved in front of people to distract them from the real issue, which is that their way of life is being stolen by a cabal of thugs who don't give a damn about anyone but themselves.

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Paul1977

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#2839931 29-Dec-2021 12:18

Rikkitic:

Are you talking about New Zealand, America, the entire world? I assume you are mainly drawing on America as an example. If that is correct, you are missing a very big and essential point. That is that the conservative perspective of ordinary, everyday people has been entirely hijacked by Fox news, which truly is an evil empire. More than any other single force, Fox has been responsible for dividing America and making it impossible for people there to find common ground in shared principles. It is a parasitic cancer destroying from within. It has elevated lying and disinformation to an art form that would have made Goebbels drool with envy. It is the prime enabler of criminals like Trump and those determined to destroy the Republican party and the American system of democratic free and fair elections. Wokeism is a bullshit flag waved in front of people to distract them from the real issue, which is that their way of life is being stolen by a cabal of thugs who don't give a damn about anyone but themselves.

I'm not sure if you're talking to me or to @BarTender.

I think we're clearly looking primarily at America but, despite what many believe, America still sets the tone for much of the western world. And the more people are exposed to the extremes in the media (especially the social media echo chambers) the more these extreme views become common place in everyday life. This hijacking is taking place on both sides.

And let's not fall into the trap of whataboutism. Just because one thing is bad, doesn't automatically make it's opposition good. The ideological goals of the left are good and noble, but much of the everyday people you speak of above feel talked down to by what they see as an elite left who are out of touch with everyday people. And it hurts the left more than it helps them. The US is a two party system, so if you feel alienated by the left where do you go?

Rikkitic

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#2839934 29-Dec-2021 12:22

If you honestly can't see a difference between Fox and (for example) CNN, then god help you.

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Paul1977

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#2839940 29-Dec-2021 12:34

Rikkitic:

If you honestly can't see a difference between Fox and (for example) CNN, then god help you.

Fox is clearly far worse between those examples. But don't think that because Fox is the most guilty that the left leaning media aren't still (at least) somewhat guilty of similar tactics. We are always more forgiving of the messenger's tactics if we like the message.

There's a big difference between US CNN and International CNN too.

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