'Something rotten in the state of Denmark'

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Forums › Politics › 'Something rotten in the state of Denmark'

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#3003613 30-Nov-2022 13:23

elpenguino:

If you don't like protest, you might enjoy living in China or Russia. I hear Iran is nice this time of year.

I don't like it when people obstruct roads and commit vandalism. Prison is the rightful place for such criminals.

Legitimate protest is fine. There have been plenty of legal protests over the years. All the power to them!

rb99

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#3003625 30-Nov-2022 13:43

Define legitimate...

“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” -John Kenneth Galbraith

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GV27

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#3003629 30-Nov-2022 14:02

rb99:

Define legitimate...

One that doesn't grind vital infrastructure to a halt.

I include in this farmers who think driving tractors down Queen St for the fifth time in as many years proves something that the other four times didn't.

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#3003641 30-Nov-2022 14:28

Oh well, I guess there's always more definitions to be made - what counts as vital, if halted for how long, what if there are alternatives...

Anyway, am just saying, IMHO the punishment does not fit the crime, and more and more forms of dissent are becoming crimes.

Can't say I remember any farmers being jailed for 6 months though...

“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” -John Kenneth Galbraith

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#3003643 30-Nov-2022 14:39

rb99:

Can't say I remember any farmers being jailed for 6 months though...

Having a conditional discharge and then committing another offence tends to get you a bit more scrutiny, one would assume.

No one would blink twice if this was a gang member being pulled up for something while on a suspended sentence, I don't see why climate change activists should be treated any differently. After all, justice is meant to be blind.

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#3003647 30-Nov-2022 15:05

True, theoretically. But non of it to me justifies such a sentence. Presumably if they were nurses sticking themselves to the road to protest cuts to health services they should also be jailed for 6 months (if they've been caught before).

“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” -John Kenneth Galbraith

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#3003796 30-Nov-2022 18:07

One would have to go into the fine detail of how things are done in Denmark.
A 6 month sentence here is never 6 months, it could be 2-3 months.
You may then also petition for home sentence and get it.

The headline sentence may be quite different from actual penalty.

Then you have Dutch style open prisons.

GV27

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#3003862 1-Dec-2022 06:18

rb99:

True, theoretically. But non of it to me justifies such a sentence. Presumably if they were nurses sticking themselves to the road to protest cuts to health services they should also be jailed for 6 months (if they've been caught before).

If they're under a suspended sentence, then sure.

The problem is you're coming from this from a position where the ends justify the means. But the courts don't get to pick and choose how noble your cause is if you're caught doing the thing you've been previously explicitly given a smack on the hand over doing.

At that point it's hard for anyone to know what the law functionally is. If I decided to bomb the Eurostar network to raise awareness of the plight of the greater lesser known spotted speckled flanged warbling grey pheasant, I've still committed an act of terror.

We've also seen this in NZ as well. You don't have free rein to opt-out of the laws governing polite society if you think your cause justifies it. If you do want to argue that is acceptable then I fail to see why anyone who disagrees with the way you've chosen to go about shouldn't be able to express that in a similar way; that is, outside the legal system. People might not like that approach anymore when they're being forcibly ejected from carriageways by a 150kg truckie named Mick who has a hundred head of livestock overheating in a truck.

elpenguino

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#3003909 1-Dec-2022 10:12

GV27:

We've also seen this in NZ as well. You don't have free rein to opt-out of the laws governing polite society if you think your cause justifies it. If you do want to argue that is acceptable then I fail to see why anyone who disagrees with the way you've chosen to go about shouldn't be able to express that in a similar way; that is, outside the legal system.

You fail to see that if you act outside the legal system then you can expect to face it? Well that's just silly. If you assault someone when it is not necessary, then you've gone too far and can expect consequences.

Do you teach your kids that two wrongs make a right?

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

GV27

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#3003912 1-Dec-2022 10:26

elpenguino:

You fail to see that if you act outside the legal system then you can expect to face it? Well that's just silly. If you assault someone when it is not necessary, then you've gone too far and can expect consequences.

I fail to see why one group should be given special people status and expect to be treated any differently to anyone else acting outside the legal system than anyone else. Past the point of acting within the law, you're just making arbitrary calls about what you deem acceptable. That's probably why those laws are there in the first place, eh?

I will probably teach my kid that no matter how much you think you have a point, throwing a tantrum about how no one is listening to you is probably not going to result in getting the thing you want.

I don't see why the courts should be expected to bend over backwards for adults who refuse to understand it because they think their beliefs make them above question by anyone. As far as the law is concerned, you aren't special.

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#3004032 1-Dec-2022 11:21

Those protesters are doing a fantastic job of attracting attention to their cause. Just look at the discussion here that their actions have engendered. More power to them.

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rb99

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#3004042 1-Dec-2022 11:37

Where the end justifies the means. Nothing blanket like that. Just saying inconveniencing people shouldn't mean you get locked up. Its just another form of protest. Holding a march that requires roads to be closed for a few hours is allowed, why not this. Would it be OK to glue your hands to the M25 if you have police permission ? I know there's lots of individual circumstances on what exactly you do and what you've done before etc.

And I do expect the cause to be taken into account, I do expect nurses blocking the road to be treated differently in the courts to the local gang branch closing the local highway demanding the legaliation of P. I imagine thats ones of the reasons why sentences are not fixed in stone.

“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” -John Kenneth Galbraith

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ezbee

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#3004051 1-Dec-2022 11:52

rb99 You are still assuming they will actually be locked up.

Denmark has one of the most liberal justice and prison systems in Europe.
There is parole, home detention, open prisons, and even their maximum security is nothing like here.
https://www.dailyscandinavian.com/denmark-opens-worlds-humane-prison/

We have our own case here.

Graham Philip receives three-year jail term for acts of sabotage
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/479858/graham-philip-receives-three-year-jail-term-for-acts-of-sabotage

""
Details of his actions are suppressed; however repair damage is estimated at likely to exceed $1.25 million.
""
His lawyer Bill Nabney said his client regretted his actions.

He said Philip now realised there were better ways to express his opposition to the vaccine mandate.
""

Will this person see three years in jail ?, absoluetly not.
Indeed he may serve very little of that and it may not even be in prison.
We will have to wait some time to see.

rb99

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#3004058 1-Dec-2022 12:01

To be honest, can't say I know a lot about the systems and government of Denmark, except that its the kind of place that is, deservedly, widely admired.

I'm using 'Something rotten in the state of Denmark' in way it has become used in the only language I am (sadly) capable of (yep English) - from the play Hamlet, where its meaning has become 'there's something seriously amiss here'.

“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” -John Kenneth Galbraith

rb99

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#3004061 1-Dec-2022 12:03

rb99:

Holding a march that requires roads to be closed for a few hours is allowed, why not this.

Because just bowling up and arbitrarily stopping a motorway because you feel like it is a damn sight different to one with planning, police escorts, where warning is given so people can avoid delay etc.

rb99:

And I do expect the cause to be taken into account, I do expect nurses blocking the road to be treated differently in the courts to the local gang branch closing the local highway demanding the legaliation of P. I imagine thats ones of the reasons why sentences are not fixed in stone.

I'm talking about gang members on suspended sentences getting treated differently to someone else on a suspended sentence for exactly the same thing. Again, you want this to be treated differently in the eyes of the law because you personally agree with their motivations.

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