Nationals Road Policy

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Forums › Politics › Nationals Road Policy - thoughts

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tweake

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#3110199 31-Jul-2023 18:55

ezbee:

There are a lot of bills coming and not a lot of money, so how you cost and where this comes from ?

yet kiwis have an expectation to make tax free income from housing.

sen8or

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#3110270 1-Aug-2023 08:00

I hope this isn't what they are expecting to get elected on, they need a comprehensive / diverse policy offering addressing other key areas in a timely fashion (I'd go health first, then education, then justice, then roads).

Whilst I am certain some policies can be funded by reducing stupid / wasteful spending, I really don't think now is the time to dish out the tax cut lollies. Target assistance for those that need it for sure, but all the fixes have to be funded somehow.

For the specific roading policy though, I really hope they haven't rushed the costings. Whilst they can play the "publicly available information card" a little bit, if its considerably wide of the mark, they leave any other policy announcements open to similar criticism and the could snatch a defeat from the jaws of victory come October,

Benoire

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#3110293 1-Aug-2023 08:50

sen8or:

I hope this isn't what they are expecting to get elected on, they need a comprehensive / diverse policy offering addressing other key areas in a timely fashion (I'd go health first, then education, then justice, then roads).

Whilst I am certain some policies can be funded by reducing stupid / wasteful spending, I really don't think now is the time to dish out the tax cut lollies. Target assistance for those that need it for sure, but all the fixes have to be funded somehow.

For the specific roading policy though, I really hope they haven't rushed the costings. Whilst they can play the "publicly available information card" a little bit, if its considerably wide of the mark, they leave any other policy announcements open to similar criticism and the could snatch a defeat from the jaws of victory come October,

The big issue with the costings is that they have. Take East-west link in Auckland, the cost they have used was the last escalated cost from ~6 years ago and doesn't reflec the realities of construction right now - this is a project they have actual data on and could easily get a QS to evaluate let alone the rest which are generally thumb sucks.

Rikkitic

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#3110307 1-Aug-2023 09:51

sen8or:

I hope this isn't what they are expecting to get elected on, they need a comprehensive / diverse policy offering addressing other key areas in a timely fashion (I'd go health first, then education, then justice, then roads).

Whilst I am certain some policies can be funded by reducing stupid / wasteful spending, I really don't think now is the time to dish out the tax cut lollies. Target assistance for those that need it for sure, but all the fixes have to be funded somehow.

For the specific roading policy though, I really hope they haven't rushed the costings. Whilst they can play the "publicly available information card" a little bit, if its considerably wide of the mark, they leave any other policy announcements open to similar criticism and the could snatch a defeat from the jaws of victory come October,

Don't all big projects here at least triple in cost by the time they are actually completed? Apart from that, wasn't National ground into the mud last election with its 'roads of national significance' policy? There is a Ford commercial on TV at the moment where Henry says if you keep doing the same thing, you keep getting the same result. The aphorism about the definition of madness also comes to mind.

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D1023319

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#3110313 1-Aug-2023 10:21

I guess I am out of step with the comments here but IMHO:
- Transmission gully (and further north bypass) has been fantastic for Wellingtons access - esp when the cost road was blocked
- we need a cross valley link in the hutt to get all the cars off the petone esplanade
- these road open up a lot of land for more housing
- the Mt Vic road tunnel is 1931 and Cobham Drive 1959 ...... Theres been no improved access since even with massive growth there

Benoire

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#3110320 1-Aug-2023 10:51

D1023319:

- these road open up a lot of land for more housing

The main issue here for the larger cities is that essentially that becomes sprawl and unsustainable financially. The rate base for a spread out city is so much lower than a compact city and with the serivces required, you either need to rate based density per square km for each asset or reduce the ability to spread out... its one of the reasons why my westminster council tax was lower than my chiswick tax was due to the higher density therefore the costs are spread over more people.

Auckland, for example, is unsustainable right now with too much costs in infrastructure and not enough rates being captured to pay for it... with the national land transport fund locked in to PPPs aready and oversubbed, there is very iittle spare cash for opex based work such as reneewals and maintance let along planning for climate adaptation and resiliance work. Sprawl just makes all of this worse.

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ockel

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#3110322 1-Aug-2023 10:54

Rikkitic:

Don't all big projects here at least triple in cost by the time they are actually completed? Apart from that, wasn't National ground into the mud last election with its 'roads of national significance' policy? There is a Ford commercial on TV at the moment where Henry says if you keep doing the same thing, you keep getting the same result. The aphorism about the definition of madness also comes to mind.

Transmission Gully, when first proposed in 2009, had a budget of $1.025bn. Somewhere along the way it had a reported budget of $850m (2019) and came in at $1.25bn. Even if the $850m amount was the budgeted cost it still didnt cost triple as you claim.

The Puhoi-Warkworth motorway original budget $710m, finished for $1.05bn. Again not triple.

And the same set of Ford advertisements quote "Vision without execution is just hallucination" which sums up the last two terms of the current Government.

Sixth Labour Government - "Vision without Execution is just Hallucination"

sen8or

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#3110336 1-Aug-2023 11:40

Rikkitic:

Don't all big projects here at least triple in cost by the time they are actually completed? Apart from that, wasn't National ground into the mud last election with its 'roads of national significance' policy? There is a Ford commercial on TV at the moment where Henry says if you keep doing the same thing, you keep getting the same result. The aphorism about the definition of madness also comes to mind.

Overbudget and beyond timeframe, almost as certain as death and taxes whenever a Govt (local or central) project is announced, its just the scale that can vary.

GV27

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#3110397 1-Aug-2023 12:28

Rikkitic:

Don't all big projects here at least triple in cost by the time they are actually completed? Apart from that, wasn't National ground into the mud last election with its 'roads of national significance' policy? There is a Ford commercial on TV at the moment where Henry says if you keep doing the same thing, you keep getting the same result. The aphorism about the definition of madness also comes to mind.

Voting for the party that keeps promising Light Rail yet pushing it back decades past when it was first campaigned and expecting something to actually happen?

No such delays on the regional fuel tax for Auckland though, we got that pretty quick-smart.

Rikkitic

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#3110407 1-Aug-2023 12:53

GV27:

Voting for the party that keeps promising Light Rail yet pushing it back decades past when it was first campaigned and expecting something to actually happen?

No such delays on the regional fuel tax for Auckland though, we got that pretty quick-smart.

You keep banging that drum. I don't disagree but it is time to find a new tune.

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Benoire

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#3110420 1-Aug-2023 13:18

I won't be voting national, not because I wouldn't benefit - I absolutately would as the tax cuts would be pretty sweet for me as a high earner, but their roads first matra is going to destroy any ability NZ has off solving its transport funding crisis. The NLTF is oversubscribed already and VKT is generally reducing and the need to maintain a neglected network is increasing. More roads is simply going to make this even worse and divert budget away from local authorities to fund their new RONS which is exactly WHY we are in this problem with road maintenance as they pulled the money away last time for their RONS whilst allowing heavier and larger trucks on the road.

They have not progressed with identifying a new funding model to solve this problem and this will essentially leave cities like Auckland paying large amounts of rates to maintain a network second only to WK within the smallest region (~7600km of road network vs. ~11000km nationally) and no ability to change how people live to make things cheaper. All the information I am privvy to suggests that construction costs will continue to increase over the next 10 years or so and crippple any maintenance of roads and building of new ones.

I will also not be voting labour as they have squandered the chance to make some meaningful change across the board and the incrementalism and unwillingness to take a chance has wasted 6 years.

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Rikkitic

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#3110437 1-Aug-2023 13:46

Benoire:

I won't be voting national, not because I wouldn't benefit - I absolutately would as the tax cuts would be pretty sweet for me as a high earner, but their roads first matra is going to destroy any ability NZ has off solving its transport funding crisis. The NLTF is oversubscribed already and VKT is generally reducing and the need to maintain a neglected network is increasing. More roads is simply going to make this even worse and divert budget away from local authorities to fund their new RONS which is exactly WHY we are in this problem with road maintenance as they pulled the money away last time for their RONS whilst allowing heavier and larger trucks on the road.

They have not progressed with identifying a new funding model to solve this problem and this will essentially leave cities like Auckland paying large amounts of rates to maintain a network second only to WK within the smallest region (~7600km of road network vs. ~11000km nationally) and no ability to change how people live to make things cheaper. All the information I am privvy to suggests that construction costs will continue to increase over the next 10 years or so and crippple any maintenance of roads and building of new ones.

I will also not be voting labour as they have squandered the chance to make some meaningful change across the board and the incrementalism and unwillingness to take a chance has wasted 6 years.

This expresses better how I feel (except the part about being a high earner) than I have been able to do. Completely agree.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

ezbee

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#3110500 1-Aug-2023 14:34

Aucklands light rail, heavy rail, express busses or whatever seems to hit a problem with ancestors building major roads too narrow.
When oppotunities existed last millenium nothing was done, so we get mired in historic buildings, hemmed in by new developments.
Problems of a shared access narrow corridor.
Even many side streets or alternate through roads in Auckland are cursed
in that increasing parking on street only gives 1 effective lane for traffic.
Probably somewhere trees are also in the way.

Why would you ever need more than one horse and buggy clearance ?
Oh darn someones angle parked their buggy up ahead !
https://dominionrd.co.nz/about/history/

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