Our PM Jacinda Ardern (and the government)

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#2862923 7-Feb-2022 10:53

networkn:

elpenguino:

But that's the point isn't it. 'Other' parties would have made different choices leading to different incomes.

If you *honestly* think that National would have done a Trump and ignored Covid till it killed many thousands of people, then I am really not sure what to tell you.

I don't 'think' National would have ignored covid - there's no need to try such an extreme argument BTW. Trump is an outlier so we can discount him as a reference when discussing the real world.

I also don't have to think anything about National's desires, honestly or not, it's in the linked page in black and white.

We know from the statements of the National leader at the time, that National wanted to take a different approach to covid and that approach would have included a more open border.

We know from other countries that opening the borders (and keeping the shops open) results in higher infection rates and therefore deaths.

Open border at all costs is based on the idea of 'mahh freedums' - too bad about the idea of public health.

https://www.odt.co.nz/star-news/star-national/nz-should-open-borders-countries-covid-muller

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

GV27

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#2863024 7-Feb-2022 13:59

elpenguino:

We know from the statements of the National leader at the time, that National wanted to take a different approach to covid and that approach would have included a more open border.

We know from other countries that opening the borders (and keeping the shops open) results in higher infection rates and therefore deaths.

Open border at all costs is based on the idea of 'mahh freedums' - too bad about the idea of public health.

https://www.odt.co.nz/star-news/star-national/nz-should-open-borders-countries-covid-muller

What about this don't you get? If National were in power, the leader at the time who was making statements would not have been the one who was the Prime Minister who was making the decisions Ardern was, it would have been English.

What the National Leader said at the time of the Covid response is borderline useless when it comes to understanding what National would have done had they been in power when Covid first popped up because he wouldn't have been the one making those calls.

elpenguino

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#2863037 7-Feb-2022 15:01

I've based my statements on facts.
You're coming a position of conjecture.

The ideology that made Muller say that is the same ideology the national party subscribe to, so it's likely any other leader would be pressured to act that way.

We'll never truly know because no national leader was in power but we have those words to base a position on.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

GV27

5896 posts

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#2863040 7-Feb-2022 15:07

elpenguino:
You're coming a position of conjecture.

The ideology that made Muller say that is the same ideology the national party subscribe to, so it's likely any other leader would be pressured to act that way.

We'll never truly know because no national leader was in power but we have those words to base a position on.

Your entire argument is conjecture - the whole hypothetical response of a hypothetical National Party to the Covid pandemic is an exercise in conjecture by definition.

You, on the other hand, can't work out who the actual leader of the party would have been at the time of the pandemic.

You're not the bloke who got 15 boosters in one day, are you?

GV27

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#2863042 7-Feb-2022 15:14

Seriously, it's hugely disingenious to argue that the Party that was basically collapsing in on itself post-English and Joyce is representative of what a National government led by them would have done. I can't spell this out any more clearly.

Bill English's wife is a GP. He spear-headed a social investment program that would have done far more for most Kiwis than the subsequent government managed, even for all their talk of poverty reduction and reform. And he is notoriously a big fan of the Catholic idea of the sanctity of life.

If you want to backwards project a later leader's comments to try and prove that a government led by Bill English would have thrown Kiwis to the wolves, then you're literally making things up to get angry about. It's not like the current National Party are leaving you with a shortage of material to work with in that department, so maybe ease off the totally baseless fan-fiction a bit.

Technofreak

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#2863044 7-Feb-2022 15:20

elpenguino: I've based my statements on facts.
You're coming a position of conjecture.

The ideology that made Muller say that is the same ideology the national party subscribe to, so it's likely any other leader would be pressured to act that way.

We'll never truly know because no national leader was in power but we have those words to base a position on.

You're coming from a position of conjecture as well on two points

The make up of the hierarchy that was in opposition at the time Covid struck was vastly different to that that, that would have been running the country had a Winston not anointed Jacinda. You have no way of knowing what they would have done.
Secondly one job of the opposition it to oppose and that by its very nature is to decry what the government is doing even if it might be exactly what they might do if they were in power. Using what is said in opposition as proof of what they might have done is pretty risky.

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Technofreak

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#2863045 7-Feb-2022 15:28

GV27:

Seriously, it's hugely disingenious to argue that the Party that was basically collapsing in on itself post-English and Joyce is representative of what a National government led by them would have done. I can't spell this out any more clearly.

Bill English's wife is a GP. He spear-headed a social investment program that would have done far more for most Kiwis than the subsequent government managed, even for all their talk of poverty reduction and reform. And he is notoriously a big fan of the Catholic idea of the sanctity of life.

If you want to backwards project a later leader's comments to try and prove that a government led by Bill English would have thrown Kiwis to the wolves, then you're literally making things up to get angry about. It's not like the current National Party are leaving you with a shortage of material to work with in that department, so maybe ease off the totally baseless fan-fiction a bit.

One of the biggest travesties of Winston's machinations in my opinion was that Bill English never got the opportunity to continue with his social investment plan. As a country we have gone backwards big time since the 2017 election so far as effective social policy goes and that's discounting any effects of Covid. Winston did the country a huge disservice just to satisfy his own ego.

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elpenguino

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#2863107 7-Feb-2022 17:57

GV27:
elpenguino:
You're coming a position of conjecture.

The ideology that made Muller say that is the same ideology the national party subscribe to, so it's likely any other leader would be pressured to act that way.

We'll never truly know because no national leader was in power but we have those words to base a position on.

Your entire argument is conjecture - the whole hypothetical response of a hypothetical National Party to the Covid pandemic is an exercise in conjecture by definition.

You, on the other hand, can't work out who the actual leader of the party would have been at the time of the pandemic.

You're not the bloke who got 15 boosters in one day, are you?

That's a bit petty
If you want to stick to the issue I'll engage with you.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

Rikkitic

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#2863115 7-Feb-2022 18:21

'What if' arguments like the latest discussion here are a complete and utterly useless waste of energy. What if someone brought a rabid dog into the country on a private yacht and it bit Winston Peters and he shot Jacinda Ardern? What if Bill English renounced Catholicism, became a Mormon, and took ten wives? What if Covid evolves into the zombie plague? What if we return this thread to a discussion of actual issues instead of pointless hypotheticals?

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

networkn

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#2863203 7-Feb-2022 21:50

Rikkitic:

'What if' arguments like the latest discussion here are a complete and utterly useless waste of energy. What if someone brought a rabid dog into the country on a private yacht and it bit Winston Peters and he shot Jacinda Ardern? What if Bill English renounced Catholicism, became a Mormon, and took ten wives? What if Covid evolves into the zombie plague? What if we return this thread to a discussion of actual issues instead of pointless hypotheticals?

The scenarios being played out here are considerably more likely and accurate than those examples. There have been plenty of discussions based on what has and hasn't happened interspersed with the theoretical.

If every single discussion must be based on facts in evidence, then there would be a lot fewer discussions held. Sometimes it's interesting to consider the alternatives to what has played out, at the end of the day, this is one of the ways we make choices on who to support.

GV27

5896 posts

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#2863316 8-Feb-2022 08:17

elpenguino:

That's a bit petty

If you want to stick to the issue I'll engage with you.

I've tried engaging with you. You're too wedded to your hypothetical National response by people who wouldn't have been leading the National Party at the time to have a discussion. That's on you.

elpenguino

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#2863344 8-Feb-2022 09:31

GV27:

You're not the bloke who got 15 boosters in one day, are you?

elpenguino:

That's a bit petty

If you want to stick to the issue I'll engage with you.

At no time will I call you names. If you want to discuss politics like a grown up, I'm keen.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

GV27

5896 posts

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#2863427 8-Feb-2022 10:52

elpenguino:

At no time will I call you names. If you want to discuss politics like a grown up, I'm keen.

"I won't insult you, but here I am saying you're not acting like a grown up and not engage with any of the points you or others have made".

Pick one.

Anyway, in an attempt to move the thread on beyond bellicose naval-gazing, Robertson has this morning ruled out rent controls, while Ardern has said the government 'hasn't given up' on housing affordability.

https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/02/07/government-not-giving-up-on-housing-affordability-ardern/

Labour are now in the unenviable position of trying to convince FHBs that they want houses to be more affordable, that they don't want people over-borrowing, but also that house prices shouldn't really drop because that would be bad too.

networkn

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#2863456 8-Feb-2022 11:20

I thought it was funny Simon Wilson was lamenting Luxon's popularity when he hadn't done anything. I don't recall similar whining when Ardern was at 26% approval rating despite having done nothing either.

Rikkitic

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#2863459 8-Feb-2022 11:26

networkn:

I thought it was funny Simon Wilson was lamenting Luxon's popularity when he hadn't done anything. I don't recall similar whining when Ardern was at 26% approval rating despite having done nothing either.

Maybe people just liked her. That must be a tough one to swallow.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

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