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Paul1977
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  #3418094 23-Sep-2025 20:27
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freitasm:

 

When the American right spent years blocking every law submitted to congress, redesigned maps to allow only their own party to win, did not denounce mob attacks on the seat of the legislative and allowed a felon to be a candidate and president, I think there's a lot that is being ignored here.

 

 

But any staunch supporter of the American right will list off an equal number of things the left did that they don’t agree with.

 

Policies aside, I firmly the believe the left are just as bad as the right in terms of finger pointing and demonising the other side. Who is more justified depends on what side you ask. There’s a lot the Republicans (especially under Trump) have done that I disagree with, but I disagree with a lot of Democrat policies as well.

 

Trying to win a contest of who is worse is folly because it’s subjective.

 

If each side says it’s their opponent alone who needs to call for a lowering of temperature it will never happen. Both side needs to come to the party and say “we a lot of differences, but how we are dealing with those differences needs to change”. 

 

Both sides needs to swallow their pride a bit.


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  #3418144 23-Sep-2025 20:36
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Paul1977:

 

freitasm:

 

When the American right spent years blocking every law submitted to congress, redesigned maps to allow only their own party to win, did not denounce mob attacks on the seat of the legislative and allowed a felon to be a candidate and president, I think there's a lot that is being ignored here.

 

 

But any staunch supporter of the American right will list off an equal number of things the left did that they don’t agree with.

 

 

Here is the thing. I will ignore everything after the first paragraph because it is not relevant. But we are not discussing with an American right person. And I have not seen a reply with even a small list of things the left did.

 

I am starting to think such a list does not exist, or it would be produced.





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  #3418145 23-Sep-2025 20:42
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quickymart:

 

Can you please name for me a prominent left-wing American politician who felt (and said) that Charlie Kirk deserved what he got and it came from the other side? Because (essentially) that's what Trump did - however he pointed the finger of blame at the left. Note that doesn't mean saying "I disagree with what Charlie Kirk believed in", as that's not hate speech. (Calling for him to be shot or killed for simply voicing his opinion would fall into that category though - and while I see lots of people on the left openly disagreeing with him, I can't see anyone calling out for his death).

 

Charlie on the other hand... https://ca.news.yahoo.com/fact-check-charlie-kirk-actually-232000071.html

 

Turning Point USA CEO and co-founder Charlie Kirk once said former U.S. President Joe Biden is a “corrupt tyrant who should honestly be put in prison and/or given the death penalty for his crimes against America.”

 

***

 

As an example, Obama said this after Kirk died, followed by comments from the current administration:

 

Former President Barack Obama has condemned what he called the “horrific” killing of Charlie Kirk, but says he was in broad disagreement with the founder of Turning Point USA — and Americans should be free to criticize his political views.

 

“I didn’t know Charlie Kirk. I was generally aware of some of his ideas. I think those ideas were wrong, but that doesn’t negate the fact that what happened was a tragedy and that I mourn for him and his family,” Obama said at the Jefferson Educational Society in Erie.

 

“We can also, at the same time, say that I disagree with the idea that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was a mistake,” he continued. “I can say that I disagree with the suggestion that my wife or Justice Jackson does not have adequate brain processing power. I can say that I disagree that Martin Luther King was awful.”

 

***

 

In the aftermath of Kirk’s death, Trump and other Republicans close to Kirk blamed the “radical left” for the shooting. Some Republicans, including Vice President JD Vance and Attorney General Pam Bondi, suggested Americans should be punished for making inflammatory comments about Kirk’s death. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth has initiated a suspension process for service members viewed as making negative comments about Kirk.

 

From: https://www.politico.com/news/2025/09/17/obama-kirk-shooting-00570397

 

Going full circle, here's what Biden said after Kirk was shot:

 

 

Please read all those responses (that's just one example there) and tell me which one you think is more likely to "bring the temperature down".

 

 

I never said any prominent democrat leaders called for Kirk’s death or said he deserved what he got. What I said was that they are just as guilty of dangerous rhetoric and finger pointing as the right.

 

Trump pointed blame at the left (which I agree isn’t conducive to easing tensions), but he certainly didn’t say Kirk deserved what happened. And there’s also been plenty of speculating from the left that the shooter was right wing. Again, both sides as bad as each other in this regard.

 

There’s always going to be “thoughts and prayers” comments after this sort of thing, but other than the empty platitudes are either side actually owning up to their culpability in creating such a politically charged environment which leads to this sort of thing?

 

 


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  #3418149 23-Sep-2025 21:04
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Again, claims without evidence.

 

A wall of text with no substance. 





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Paul1977
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  #3418150 23-Sep-2025 21:07
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freitasm:

 

Here is the thing. I will ignore everything after the first paragraph because it is not relevant. But we are not discussing with an American right person. And I have not seen a reply with even a small list of things the left did.

 

I am starting to think such a list does not exist, or it would be produced.

 

 

Any right wing commentator on YouTube (or Fox “News”) will rattle off a list as long as your arm of policies and actions the left implemented that they have grievances with. I’m not going to list any myself, because I don’t think the specifics of policies have relevance to the need for both sides to come to the party if America is ever going to get better (and I don’t nessecarily agree with their opinions so don’t want them to be mistaken as my opinions). The point is the Left thinks the Right is bad, and the Right thinks the Left is bad.

 

As far as ignoring the rest of my post… suggesting that lowering the temperature of a heated political climate is a two way street seems pretty relevant to me. To ignore that need just perpetuates the never-ending blame game of “us” vs “them”.

 

Not that it should matter, but just for clarity, if I was an American I’d probably fairly moderate. Bill Maher would be the commentator that makes the most sense to me.

 

 


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  #3418151 23-Sep-2025 21:18
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My point is that "there are bad people in both sides" is whataboutism. And by claiming things without evidence, even after being asked multiple times, doesn't make the claim more truthful.





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Paul1977
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  #3418209 23-Sep-2025 21:30
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freitasm:

 

My point is that "there are bad people in both sides" is whataboutism. And by claiming things without evidence, even after being asked multiple times, doesn't make the claim more truthful.

 

 

To be honest I don’t have enough skin in the game for it to be worth my time sourcing evidence that is extremely unlikely to change your opinion any way.

 

I believe my argument that both sides need to lower the temperature is self evident, but we can respectfully agree to disagree.


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  #3418211 23-Sep-2025 21:33
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I was going to post a reply but I see yours above so will leave it. I found this instead though (still relevant to this thread):

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/never-been-busier-the-ex-trump-devotee-who-helps-others-escape-maga/ar-AA1N3GoO?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=13fbabcc4de1444f9a1377199cfc0769&ei=13

 

This is interesting, this guy helps people who have turned away from MAGA get out of the movement, kind of like a victim support group. And he says he's quite busy at the moment.

 

“The damage that has been caused will take many, many years to rectify,” Logis said.

 

“I will say I am not surprised at the pace at which this has been done. I have to emphasize that when in MAGA, chaos is welcome, because we always felt that if we were wreaking havoc, we were on the offensive, and that's exactly how I think the President and his advisers approach governing.”

 

Why doesn't that surprise me?

 

(This is the guy's site, btw: https://leavingmaga.org/ - there's only a few people on there for now, although I imagine not everyone would want to go public with their story).


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  #3418213 23-Sep-2025 21:48
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Paul1977:

 

freitasm:

 

My point is that "there are bad people in both sides" is whataboutism. And by claiming things without evidence, even after being asked multiple times, doesn't make the claim more truthful.

 

 

To be honest I don’t have enough skin in the game for it to be worth my time sourcing evidence that is extremely unlikely to change your opinion any way.

 

I believe my argument that both sides need to lower the temperature is self evident, but we can respectfully agree to disagree.

 

 

Sure, the temperature needs to come down, I agree.

 

The argument "both sides need to lower" is on the other hand, very similar to Trump's comments when commenting on an actual nazi rally saying "very fine people on both sides".

 

No. There's one side that's obviously playing dirty and one of the tactics is to detail the discourse.

 

My point is, some people don't seem to argue in good faith.

 

That is your cue to leave this discussion.





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  #3418214 23-Sep-2025 22:01
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The American Conservative Managing Editor Jude Russo: "There is only a certain amount of stupidity the American discourse will tolerate and using a free speech activist's death to crack down on free speech may in fact cross the threshold of American discursive stupidity" (6:38)




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  #3418232 24-Sep-2025 07:00
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The NY Times - Man Found Guilty of Trying to Assassinate Trump in Florida

 

breaking

 


A man who plotted to kill President Trump last year and staked him out at one of his Florida golf courses with a semiautomatic rifle was found guilty on Tuesday of attempting to assassinate a major presidential candidate, a charge that carries a maximum penalty of life in prison.

 

Ryan W. Routh, 59, an itinerant building contractor from North Carolina, was also found guilty of assaulting a federal officer and several firearm violations.

 

The verdict came after a fast-moving trial in which Mr. Routh chose to defend himself without a lawyer.

 





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  #3418268 24-Sep-2025 08:26
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Read all about it ...

 

The NY Times  - ‘Your Countries Are Going to Hell’: Trump Airs His Grievances at the U.N. (unlocked link)

 

The Washington Post - Trump upbraids U.N. in speech, claiming ‘your countries are going to hell’ (unlocked link)

 


In a meandering address, Trump rebuked global institutions and complained about immigration, environmentalists, windmills and more.

 

Hard to summarise, but read the two links above.

 

Trumpy lost his teleprompter early in the piece.

 

He ad-fibbed for almost an hour (4x his allocated time), sounding like the tired, deluded old man that he is.

 

Oratorical gems included:

 

I’m really good at this stuff,” Trump said. "Your countries are going to hell.” (the United Nations)

 

It’s the greatest con job ever perpetrated on the world”  (global warming)

 

Trump has “accomplished more than almost any administration in the history of our country.” (laughter)

 

He has prevented 7 wars (not specified) 

 

...  and he has saved "millions of lives"

 

 

 

 





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  #3418274 24-Sep-2025 08:44
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kingdragonfly: 

I mean, they never cancelled their popular late night host, 'Horrifying Giant Spider'."

 

 

 

No joke, Horrifying Giant Spider is a national treasure. Personally I prefer F***'n Aggro Roo but on the whole we're a bunch of open minded c***s.

 

 

 

Sigh I wish ... 





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  #3418276 24-Sep-2025 08:48
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gzt: The American Conservative Managing Editor Jude Russo: "There is only a certain amount of stupidity the American discourse will tolerate and using a free speech activist's death to crack down on free speech may in fact cross the threshold of American discursive stupidity" (6:38)


 

 

 

If 2015-2025 has taught me anything it's that I should not get my hopes up about America possibly having any sort of stupid threshold. I mean, they elected a man who was fresh off 34 criminal convictions, let alone adjudicated rapist. It is unbelievable to me that Kamala Harris chose not to hammer him with that in response to literally every question. I mean sure, let's avoid ad hominems if at all possible, but those things are facts.





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  #3418346 24-Sep-2025 10:14
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My firm belief is that the American Government should be voted in democratically, without the nonsense and gerrymandering we see. 
I think the best way to do this is to have the whole system managed by a neutral third party. 

Get the Swiss to deal with it, or the good people of Southland. 





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Handsome Dan needs to stop adding three dots to every sentence...

 

Handsome Dan does not currently have a side hustle as the mascot for Yale 

 

 

 

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