Gays and Marriage

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Klipspringer

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#667454 4-Aug-2012 14:25

KevinL:
I just think it's very interesting that you seem to be describing bringing up your children to believe that everything that isn't what you consider "normal" is wrong. In my mind all that is doing is perpetuating the cycle of intolerance.

On the other hand, it's a completely different scenario to bring up children to respect that there are people who don't necessarily fit with what your family considers to be "normal", but it's OK because it's their life, and that's how they choose to live it (its just not for you or your family).

I guess my point is that it's all well and good to dictate what is "normal" and "good" for your own family, but to teach others that anything different is "wrong" is intolerance, and isn't something that I could personally agree with. Forbidding your children from visiting the children of gay parents, as you've alluded to, seems a little bit sad to me.

So you saying being gay is the norm? If not, what is it? If that was the case I would agree with you. Cant make it much more simple than to just put it down bluntly. If thats my opinion or not it does not really matter. Being gay is not the norm.

I teach my kids not to swear at home and to show respect, have good manners etc. It seems that its the norm for kiwi kids to swear and show disrespect for their parents. Is that being intolerable? or dictating?

Anti social behaviour among our children also seems to be the norm in NZ. In the same way as I won't let my kids go for a sleepover at parents that allow this sort of behaviour, its the same with gay couples. If I don't believe in their family values, or lack of them, I'm not going to allow my kids to be part of it. Its part of being a good parent and all part of a good healthy upbringing for the kids. Very different to how most parents in NZ seem to operate. No surprises why so many children in this country end up the way they do. No guidance what's so ever.

Anyway, think I have gone way off topic now and apologies for that. I'm unsubscribing from this thread as we just going around in circles.

Handle9

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#667455 4-Aug-2012 14:26

tardtasticx:

You are an absolutely disgusting excuse for a parent and a human. You sicken me.

In my view you are way out of line here. You've asked for this debate and you've asked for people not to call each other names, that should really apply to you too. I don't agree with BraaiGuy' values around this but he has a right to his opinion without being personally attacked. You haven't got any right to tell him what his values are but you do have the right to disagree and argue.

He's got the guts to give his opinion on this issue so you need to treat him civilly. It doesn't mean I think he's right, far from it, but if we can't have a civil debate this thread really should be locked again IMO.

keewee01

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#667459 4-Aug-2012 14:28

BraaiGuy:
Its by no means the norm to be gay.

in your opinion - that's the point that is missed again and again and again... your opinion

Speaking generally, it is a shame so many in society lack tolerance and understanding - and most surprising is the backgrounds those people often come from where tolerance and understanding is meant to be part of their lives. Sigh. Hippocracy is rife in our society - it is such a shame.

freitasm

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#667460 4-Aug-2012 14:29

Handle9: He's got the guts to give his opinion on this issue so you need to treat him civilly. It doesn't mean I think he's right, far from it, but if we can't have a civil debate this thread really should be locked again IMO.

I can tell you more than one moderator is reading the whole thread as it develops, because we know this can escalate very quickly. Probably the most "observed" thread in a while here...

tardtasticx

3075 posts

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#667461 4-Aug-2012 14:29

Handle9:
tardtasticx:

You are an absolutely disgusting excuse for a parent and a human. You sicken me.

In my view you are way out of line here. You've asked for this debate and you've asked for people not to call each other names, that should really apply to you too. I don't agree with BraaiGuy' values around this but he has a right to his opinion without being personally attacked. You haven't got any right to tell him what his values are but you do have the right to disagree and argue.

He's got the guts to give his opinion on this issue so you need to treat him civilly. It doesn't mean I think he's right, far from it, but if we can't have a civil debate this thread really should be locked again IMO.

I kind of regret saying that, as extensively as I did, for that I apologise BraaiGuy, but it did wind me up quite a lot to read that stuff, I stand by what I think though, just on less of a personal level against you. Sorry. I'll keep it civil from now on.

Handle9

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#667464 4-Aug-2012 14:33

tardtasticx:
Handle9:
tardtasticx:

You are an absolutely disgusting excuse for a parent and a human. You sicken me.

In my view you are way out of line here. You've asked for this debate and you've asked for people not to call each other names, that should really apply to you too. I don't agree with BraaiGuy' values around this but he has a right to his opinion without being personally attacked. You haven't got any right to tell him what his values are but you do have the right to disagree and argue.

He's got the guts to give his opinion on this issue so you need to treat him civilly. It doesn't mean I think he's right, far from it, but if we can't have a civil debate this thread really should be locked again IMO.

I kind of regret saying that, as extensively as I did, for that I apologise BraaiGuy, but it did wind me up quite a lot to read that stuff, I stand by what I think though, just on less of a personal level against you. Sorry. I'll keep it civil from now on.

That's fair, I know it's an intensely personal issue for you.

KevinL

656 posts

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#667465 4-Aug-2012 14:36

BraaiGuy:
KevinL:
I just think it's very interesting that you seem to be describing bringing up your children to believe that everything that isn't what you consider "normal" is wrong. In my mind all that is doing is perpetuating the cycle of intolerance.

On the other hand, it's a completely different scenario to bring up children to respect that there are people who don't necessarily fit with what your family considers to be "normal", but it's OK because it's their life, and that's how they choose to live it (its just not for you or your family).

I guess my point is that it's all well and good to dictate what is "normal" and "good" for your own family, but to teach others that anything different is "wrong" is intolerance, and isn't something that I could personally agree with. Forbidding your children from visiting the children of gay parents, as you've alluded to, seems a little bit sad to me.

So you saying being gay is the norm? If not, what is it? If that was the case I would agree with you. Cant make it much more simple than to just put it down bluntly. If thats my opinion or not it does not really matter. Being gay is not the norm.

I teach my kids not to swear at home and to show respect, have good manners etc. It seems that its the norm for kiwi kids to swear and show disrespect for their parents. Is that being intolerable? or dictating?

Anti social behaviour among our children also seems to be the norm in NZ. In the same way as I won't let my kids go for a sleepover at parents that allow this sort of behaviour, its the same with gay couples. If I don't believe in their family values, or lack of them, I'm not going to allow my kids to be part of it. Its part of being a good parent and all part of a good healthy upbringing for the kids. Very different to how most parents in NZ seem to operate. No surprises why so many children in this country end up the way they do. No guidance what's so ever.

Anyway, think I have gone way off topic now and apologies for that. I'm unsubscribing from this thread as we just going around in circles.

I'm not saying being gay is the norm - I'm also not saying being heterosexual is the norm. I'm saying that what one person considers to be normal may be substantially different from another person's - there is no right or wrong, just "different". Everybody is entitled to their own opinions, and I respect your opinions.

What saddens me is that you seem to be bringing up your children not to respect other people's opinions, but to judge them and discriminate on the basis of sexuality. I don't mean to criticise you and as you certainly have every right to decide what you consider to be "right", however it just isn't how I was brought up, and it isn't how I intend to bring up my own children. I personally feel it is so, so important for us to accept our fellow human beings regardless of whether we agree or not with their personal convictions.

As you say though, we've gone a bit off topic.

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keewee01

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#667466 4-Aug-2012 14:36

If something is being written in the heat of the moment I find it a good policy to walk away for 5 minutes before hitting the POST button, then coming back, reading it again and moderating it before posting.

keewee01

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#667467 4-Aug-2012 14:38

KevinL:
BraaiGuy:
KevinL:
I just think it's very interesting that you seem to be describing bringing up your children to believe that everything that isn't what you consider "normal" is wrong. In my mind all that is doing is perpetuating the cycle of intolerance.

On the other hand, it's a completely different scenario to bring up children to respect that there are people who don't necessarily fit with what your family considers to be "normal", but it's OK because it's their life, and that's how they choose to live it (its just not for you or your family).

I guess my point is that it's all well and good to dictate what is "normal" and "good" for your own family, but to teach others that anything different is "wrong" is intolerance, and isn't something that I could personally agree with. Forbidding your children from visiting the children of gay parents, as you've alluded to, seems a little bit sad to me.

So you saying being gay is the norm? If not, what is it? If that was the case I would agree with you. Cant make it much more simple than to just put it down bluntly. If thats my opinion or not it does not really matter. Being gay is not the norm.

I teach my kids not to swear at home and to show respect, have good manners etc. It seems that its the norm for kiwi kids to swear and show disrespect for their parents. Is that being intolerable? or dictating?

Anti social behaviour among our children also seems to be the norm in NZ. In the same way as I won't let my kids go for a sleepover at parents that allow this sort of behaviour, its the same with gay couples. If I don't believe in their family values, or lack of them, I'm not going to allow my kids to be part of it. Its part of being a good parent and all part of a good healthy upbringing for the kids. Very different to how most parents in NZ seem to operate. No surprises why so many children in this country end up the way they do. No guidance what's so ever.

Anyway, think I have gone way off topic now and apologies for that. I'm unsubscribing from this thread as we just going around in circles.

I'm not saying being gay is the norm - I'm also not saying being heterosexual is the norm. I'm saying that what one person considers to be normal may be substantially different from another person's - there is no right or wrong, just "different". Everybody is entitled to their own opinions, and I respect your opinions.

What saddens me is that you seem to be bringing up your children not to respect other people's opinions, but to judge them and discriminate on the basis of sexuality. I don't mean to criticise you and as you certainly have every right to decide what you consider to be "right", however it just isn't how I was brought up, and it isn't how I intend to bring up my own children. I personally feel it is so, so important for us to accept our fellow human beings regardless of whether we agree or not with their personal convictions.

As you say though, we've gone a bit off topic.

THIS! It what I'd been trying to say as well, but some people would rather get into the semantics of a words definition, rather how it actually applies in the real world.

Skolink

1081 posts

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#667468 4-Aug-2012 14:46

KevinL:
What would you do if one of your kids came home and told you that they were gay?

Tell them " I love you".
Perhaps ask what led them to that conclusion. Hold out hope that one day they might change their mind, but do nothing to drive them away.
Would I attend their wedding? That decision would cause a lot of heartache. I don't know what the answer would be.

We will teach our children to respect other people, and to treat others as they would have others treat them.

We would also teach them that same-sex relationships are wrong. I know this may seem like a contradiction, but it is not. Obviously there are other things that we will teach them are wrong to do, but to be kind to everyone regardless of how they live their lives, or what they believe. Everyone does wrong things.

kyhwana2

2566 posts

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#667479 4-Aug-2012 15:02

Also, Study: Children of Lesbians May Do Better Than Their Peers http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1994480,00.html

freitasm

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#667506 4-Aug-2012 15:43

Ok, this is locked for good.

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