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SaltyNZ
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  #3508953 6-Jul-2026 12:49
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Handle9:

 

In the Westminster system the courts have no role in “challenging parliament.” The whole concept is an absolute anathema to democracy. 

 

The role of judges is administrative , not legislative. Parliament is sovereign and makes the laws, the judiciary interprets and administers the laws. 

 

 

 

Australia also uses the Westminster system and yet the High Court is constitutionally empowered to strike down unconstitutional laws just like the US Supreme Court. In any case there is nothing inherently, fundamentally superior about the Westminster system. It more or less works, most of the time, so that's good, I guess? But it doesn't have a monopoly on the right way to do things.

 

 

 

 

The idea that unelected officials have some power of veto over a democratically elected government is incredibly concerning. A judiciary that has become increasingly activist is a real problem in New Zealand. If the judges want to change the law they need to run for parliament. 

 

 

 

 

The only power of veto they have is when they have interpreted (as you yourself said is their job) the law and shown it to be contrary to the constitution. Parliament is free to make as many dumb or discriminatory laws as they like, and as long they are constitutional the courts can't touch them. And I agree that they should not be able to.

 

But there has to be someone to keep Parliamentary overreach in check. There's nothing stopping Christopher Luxon from deciding he's done with this whole election thing and declaring the coalition to be rulers in perpetuity as long as he can convince Winston and Seymour to go along with him other than that it would be a bad look. But if he wanted it enough a couple of days of urgency in Parliament could mean there's no more election in November. More reasonably, there is nothing stopping him from repealing the Bill of Rights or indeed any other "constitutional" law he finds inconvenient. As the Americans say, if your rights can be voted away by the government then they aren't rights. They're privileges.

 

There is a problem in New Zealand wherein "The Constitution" is a nebulous thing where no two people can necessarily agree on where it begins and ends let alone what it says in the middle. I think a codified, written constitution would be a great benefit, but at the moment the political climate is certainly too fraught to have a grown-up conversation about things like what even constitutes human rights, let alone Te Tiriti o Waitangi. The likes of Seymour would love nothing more than to write a constitution that locks the Mahrees out of the agreement their tupuna made with pakeha about shared governance of the land and the peoples, and Winston would love to legislate the gays and the trans wokesters into the gutter.

 

 

 

 





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CruciasNZ
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  #3508964 6-Jul-2026 13:42
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I feel we'll never have the cultural environment where we could have a grown-up, productive, conversation about a constitution. I have often thought that government should have to lob certain hot topic issues out to panels of experts that review, recommend and author first drafts purely based on facts and final drafts should require referendums to implement. Those experts should be volunteers from relevant fields (e.g. it should be a requirement that anything on education must be influenced by experts in the field of education), and not just whatever Consultant bid the cheapest (and more importantly, not a random politician who fancies they know better but were a lawyer or businessman)

 

A great example would be the American issue of gerrymeandering, if they were required to have their voting maps drawn by academia based on facts and guided by law then a lot of the BS we see wouldn't be possible. As it's not required, where they've tried to do that it gets in long drawn-out fights by the party that views it as disadvantaging their election chances. If it were the default, there'd be a lot less room for BS.

 

 





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  #3508966 6-Jul-2026 13:58
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SaltyNZ:

 

... the detailed implementation in the US has been shown to not be as robust as you would want, 

 

 

Somewhat of an understatement ... 





Mike




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  #3508968 6-Jul-2026 14:07
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CruciasNZ:

 

A great example would be the American issue of gerrymeandering, if they were required to have their voting maps drawn by academia based on facts and guided by law then a lot of the BS we see wouldn't be possible.

 

 

You'd see no change at all because academics have political biases too and they wouldn't be able to agree.  Maybe no change would be a good thing.





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  #3508969 6-Jul-2026 14:13
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MikeAqua:

 

You'd see no change at all because academics have political biases too and they wouldn't be able to agree.  Maybe no change would be a good thing.

 

 

Fair comment. There's only so much you can use procedural guardrails and sub-sectioning the scope to limit that sort of thing. That said, I still believe it would be way better than a bunch of politicians having a go at it, often with no experience in the area they're mucking about in. 





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MikeAqua
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  #3508971 6-Jul-2026 14:22
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SaltyNZ:

 

But there has to be someone to keep Parliamentary overreach in check. There's nothing stopping Christopher Luxon from deciding he's done with this whole election thing and declaring the coalition to be rulers in perpetuity as long as he can convince Winston and Seymour to go along with him other than that it would be a bad look. But if he wanted it enough a couple of days of urgency in Parliament could mean there's no more election in November. More reasonably, there is nothing stopping him from repealing the Bill of Rights or indeed any other "constitutional" law he finds inconvenient. As the Americans say, if your rights can be voted away by the government then they aren't rights. They're privileges.

 

There is a problem in New Zealand wherein "The Constitution" is a nebulous thing where no two people can necessarily agree on where it begins and ends let alone what it says in the middle. I think a codified, written constitution would be a great benefit, but at the moment the political climate is certainly too fraught to have a grown-up conversation about things like what even constitutes human rights, let alone Te Tiriti o Waitangi. The likes of Seymour would love nothing more than to write a constitution that locks the Mahrees out of the agreement their tupuna made with pakeha about shared governance of the land and the peoples, and Winston would love to legislate the gays and the trans wokesters into the gutter.

 

 

There are safeguards under NZ's constitution: The royal assent and other powers of the GG. They aren't often used but they are there.  The Australian GG for example used his power to dismiss the PM (Whitlam).

 

NZ's GG can dismiss parliament.

 

An issue might be how the exercise of the GG's powers enforced.

 

We also have half a dozen constitutional acts entrenched (75% majority to amend).





Mike


 
 
 

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SaltyNZ
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  #3508972 6-Jul-2026 14:24
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MikeAqua:

 

CruciasNZ:

 

A great example would be the American issue of gerrymeandering, if they were required to have their voting maps drawn by academia based on facts and guided by law then a lot of the BS we see wouldn't be possible.

 

 

You'd see no change at all because academics have political biases too and they wouldn't be able to agree.  Maybe no change would be a good thing.

 

 

 

 

And yet, a statutorily apolitical organisation made up of people who undoubtedly have their own private political opinions does a perfectly good job of putting them aside to create fair electoral maps in New Zealand.





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SaltyNZ
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  #3508973 6-Jul-2026 14:33
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MikeAqua:

 

There are safeguards under NZ's constitution: The royal assent and other powers of the GG. They aren't often used but they are there.  The Australian GG for example used his power to dismiss the PM (Whitlam).

 

NZ's GG can dismiss parliament.

 

An issue might be how the exercise of the GG's powers enforced.

 

We also have half a dozen constitutional acts entrenched (75% majority to amend).

 

 

 

 

I'm aware, which is why after the tongue in cheek PM-for-life example I added the repeal of the Bill of Rights. The GG isn't going to dissolve parliament for something like that. They haven't attempted to reject laws or dissolve parliament in the past even when the courts have declared them effectively unconstitutional. Why would they start now?

 

As an Australian, I am also well aware of the Whitlam example and that doesn't fit this argument at all. The Whitlam government was not kicked out because they passed some unconscionable law. They were simply unable to command enough of a majority across the House of Representatives and in particular the Senate to pass an appropriations bill after multiple attempts and thus were both de facto and de jour unable to govern the country. It is probably the only situation where invoking reserve powers would not be the end of the constitution as it was perfectly clear to everyone except Gough Whitlam that the government was dead in the water.





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freitasm

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  #3508975 6-Jul-2026 14:38
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MikeAqua:

 

CruciasNZ:

 

A great example would be the American issue of gerrymeandering, if they were required to have their voting maps drawn by academia based on facts and guided by law then a lot of the BS we see wouldn't be possible.

 

 

You'd see no change at all because academics have political biases too and they wouldn't be able to agree.  Maybe no change would be a good thing.

 

 

A group of people relying on facts naturally tend to have a liberal bias. 





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MikeAqua
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  #3508978 6-Jul-2026 14:52
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SaltyNZ:

 

And yet, a statutorily apolitical organisation made up of people who undoubtedly have their own private political opinions does a perfectly good job of putting them aside to create fair electoral maps in New Zealand.

 

 

America is not NZ.  And we were talking about Academics not govt officials, which is what 6 of the 8 members of NZ's Representation Committee are.

 

Also ... how do we know it's perfectly good?   What's the measure?





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  #3508979 6-Jul-2026 14:58
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SaltyNZ:

 

I'm aware, which is why after the tongue in cheek PM-for-life example I added the repeal of the Bill of Rights. The GG isn't going to dissolve parliament for something like that. They haven't attempted to reject laws or dissolve parliament in the past even when the courts have declared them effectively unconstitutional. Why would they start now?

 

As an Australian, I am also well aware of the Whitlam example and that doesn't fit this argument at all. The Whitlam government was not kicked out because they passed some unconscionable law. They were simply unable to command enough of a majority across the House of Representatives and in particular the Senate to pass an appropriations bill after multiple attempts and thus were both de facto and de jour unable to govern the country. It is probably the only situation where invoking reserve powers would not be the end of the constitution as it was perfectly clear to everyone except Gough Whitlam that the government was dead in the water.

 

 

You don't know what the GHG is or isn't going to do and what the threshold is.  I would guess it would have to be 'vital organs' stuff.  Like the suspension of democracy scenario that you alluded to.  I also think you're fundamentally incorrect about that anyway, because the law requiring elections is entrenched.  

 

I mentioned Whitlam as example of a GG exercising their powers.  Not because of the specific circumstances.  Point is GGs have powers.





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Handle9
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  #3508980 6-Jul-2026 14:59
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SaltyNZ:

 

There's nothing stopping Christopher Luxon from deciding he's done with this whole election thing and declaring the coalition to be rulers in perpetuity as long as he can convince Winston and Seymour to go along with him other than that it would be a bad look. But if he wanted it enough a couple of days of urgency in Parliament could mean there's no more election in November. 

 

 

Section 17 of the constitution act is entrenched. It requires a 75% majority in parliament or a referendum to change that so there is something stopping that happen. It's a very good example of parliament making a law to be interpreted by the courts.

 

The US constitution is a great example of how a rigid constitution is far from superior to the system in New Zealand, for New Zealand. Having a straight jacket from 1789 governing how a government operates has created massive overhead and roadblock to change. 

 

 


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  #3508992 6-Jul-2026 15:08
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MikeAqua:

 

SaltyNZ:

 

And yet, a statutorily apolitical organisation made up of people who undoubtedly have their own private political opinions does a perfectly good job of putting them aside to create fair electoral maps in New Zealand.

 

 

America is not NZ.  And we were talking about Academics not govt officials, which is what 6 of the 8 members of NZ's Representation Committee are.

 

Also ... how do we know it's perfectly good?   What's the measure?

 

 

 

 

What makes you think that they are not? What's the evidence that Stats NZ a) know how people vote in the absence of public party registration that many US states have and b) that, knowing that, they managed to make a 5-dimensional squiggly electorate map that simply looks like a perfectly reasonable boundary capturing the required number of people?

 

Because the evidence that it is good is that none of the parties, left, right or otherwise, think that it isn't.





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MikeAqua
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  #3508993 6-Jul-2026 15:10
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freitasm:

 

A group of people relying on facts naturally tend to have a liberal bias. 

 

 

The research says not at all.  Academics given the same data sets tend to form conclusions skewed toward their own political biases.

 

For example (research published in January), you could give 158 teams of sociologists the same data.  The anti-immigration teams will tend to conclude it shows immigration is harmful.  The pro-immigration teams will tend to find that the data shows immigration is beneficial.  Professional researchers (should be immune to bias).  Pure facts.  Biased conclusions.

 

Setting that aside ... Your fundamental supposition is wrong: Setting electoral boundaries shouldn't result in liberal or conservative outcomes.  It should result in electorates that contain the correct number of people, having zero regard to voting patterns.

 

 





Mike


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  #3508995 6-Jul-2026 15:15
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SaltyNZ:

 

What makes you think that they are not? What's the evidence that Stats NZ a) know how people vote in the absence of public party registration that many US states have and b) that, knowing that, they managed to make a 5-dimensional squiggly electorate map that simply looks like a perfectly reasonable boundary capturing the required number of people?

 

Because the evidence that it is good is that none of the parties, left, right or otherwise, think that it isn't.

 

 

I didn't express an opinion either way.  You made an assertion and I asked how you know?  It sounds like political crickets on the topic is your rationale.





Mike


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