Incompetent Ministers

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#793286 4-Apr-2013 15:42

vexxxboy: im sorry but could someone explain to me how someone can get cyber bullied if they dont want to be, if it starts isn't just easy to delete your account , change your number/ email and start a new persona. Why let it carry on enough that you are seriously thinking of suicide. I would have thought bullying at school is a lot more insidious and no one seems to care about that to the extent of making it a serious criminal act.

Broadly speaking, a person in the school yard can get bullied by five people before school starts during breaks and after school. Its generally in one place – like behind the bike shed. There’s a remote chance someone might step in between the bully and victim.

Cyber bullying, on the other hand can start at 6.00am, go continuously through the day through to 2.00am. It can be via phone, facebook, gmail etc so multi points of simultaneous attack. And the number of bullies can increase exponentially. It starts as one person, then five of their “friends” join in, and then five of their Friends etc until a person is bombarded with hundreds of faceless bullying texts and emails etc pretty much anytime of day, any place with no one around to step in. A bullied person can try and hide by opening up a new account or changing phone number but the hiding place takes no time to find and within moments the bullies are at it again.

A radical legislative suggestion which is totally impracticable is to require the bullied to bin all electronic devices and start communicating verbally.

People just don’t seem to be grasping how they are opening up massive vulnerabilities by using electronic media. And its not just the young. There was an old fulla who was fired (successfully) after posting happy photos of himself at some event when he was supposed to be off sick.

SaltyNZ

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#793291 4-Apr-2013 15:50

minimoke:
A radical legislative suggestion which is totally impracticable is to require the bullied to bin all electronic devices and start communicating verbally.

How about we just have generic legislation that says 'Don't be a d***head.'?

Otherwise we just all our time trying to define all the ways not to be a d***head --

Don't be a d***head on the phone
Don't be a d***head on the internet
Don't be a d***head in a car
Don't be a d***head on a plane
Don't be a d***head in a boat
Don't be a d***head walking down the street
Don't be a d***head in your lounge room
Don't be a d***head in a public toilet
Don't be a d***head at a restaurant
Don't be a d***head in the movie theatre
...

EDIT -- I forgot:

Don't be a d***head in a box
Don't be a d***head with a fox
Don't be a d***head with a mouse
Don't be a d***head in a house
And Don't be a d***head in the rain, or on a train

//Manic giggles.

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minimoke

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#793308 4-Apr-2013 16:14

SaltyNZ:
minimoke:
A radical legislative suggestion which is totally impracticable is to require the bullied to bin all electronic devices and start communicating verbally.

How about we just have generic legislation that says 'Don't be a d***head.'?

Otherwise we just all our time trying to define all the ways not to be a d***head --

we already have:

Don't be a d***head on the phone

its an offence to use profane language

Don't be a d***head on the internet

Its an offense to dowlnoad pirated and obscene material

Don't be a d***head in a car

you can smoke and use satnav but dont use a phone

Don't be a d***head on a plane

don't mention "bomb"

Don't be a d***head in a boat

you can do most things on a boat but runnining a swimmer over is likley to get you into trouble

Don't be a d***head walking down the street

there wil be a littering offence

Don't be a d***head in your lounge room

A priests lounge is his castle - unless theres a choir boy there at the same time

Don't be a d***head in a public toilet

yup - even celbrities don't get away with that one

So I guess there are already loads of offences for being a di***head. One more offense on the statute book won't make a difference

sleemanj

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#793342 4-Apr-2013 17:01

freitasm:

It seems some people there (even the media) can't understand that "anti-government policies" (dissent) is different from "anti-American" (non patriotic).

I wonder how long before people here in New Zealand fall for the same.

"Anti-NZ" just isn't even a thing for people to confuse with dissent in the first place. I don't think I've ever hear anybody use the phrase. We just don't do the whole patriotism thing that the US does. In fact, it's probably fair to say, that no other country on earth does patriotism like the US does.

I'm all for being proud to say your from XXXXX, to wipe a tear from your eye when you hear your national anthem far away from home, to cheer on your countrymen in your favourite sports... but the US just goes waaaay over the top, I'm glad I wasn't brought up in the US, because there are so many things I would just find intolerable, starting with a "pledge of allegiance" every morning at school!

---
James Sleeman
I sell lots of stuff for electronic enthusiasts...

insane

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#793385 4-Apr-2013 18:30

It's politics, broken down :

poly = multiple
ticks = blood sucking leaches

mjb

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#793400 4-Apr-2013 19:13

freitasm: Be careful folks. She might get offended and say you're bullying her.

* Making it an offence to send messages and post material online that is grossly offensive, indecent, obscene, menacing or knowingly false, punishable by up to 3 months imprisonment or a $2,000 fine.

*awesome*.

</sarcasm>

edit: before someone takes that in the wrong context - it's just that it's suitably vague. I find god bothering offensive, but that won't get someone prison time.

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vexxxboy

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#793403 4-Apr-2013 19:15

Cyber bullying, on the other hand can start at 6.00am, go continuously through the day through to 2.00am. It can be via phone, facebook, gmail etc so multi points of simultaneous attack. And the number of bullies can increase exponentially. It starts as one person, then five of their “friends” join in, and then five of their Friends etc until a person is bombarded with hundreds of faceless bullying texts and emails etc pretty much anytime of day, any place with no one around to step in. A bullied person can try and hide by opening up a new account or changing phone number but the hiding place takes no time to find and within moments the bullies are at it again.

again if they dont want to be bullied stay of the internet and phones for a week or so if it's that much of a problem. sorry but the answer seems so simple, if you dont want to be consistently bullied by a person in cyber space, then stop having contact with them

Common sense is not as common as you think.

mjb

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#793405 4-Apr-2013 19:20

edit:^^^^ I'm guessing you've never been bullied. it's nowhere near that simple.

vexxxboy:
A lot of the people who get cyber bullied are very young and very impressionable. Their parents most likely have no idea what is going on and the young people themselves have no idea how to handle it and don't want to tell their parents. Instead they withdraw, become depressed etc.

again what parent gives anyone that young complete and unsupervised access to the internet and again how is that different to being bullied in real life

Are you a parent?

It's not just about the internet. it's mobile phones, instant messaging, any technology where social interaction is possible.

Please don't stick your head in the sand - whilst Judith is somewhat mis-guided, her attention to this issue is well deserved, and if it's done right, I think it's a good thing.

(speaking as an ex- high school bullying victim)

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vexxxboy

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#793500 4-Apr-2013 21:11

i have 3 kids and none of them use social media or mobile phones , in fact my 18 year old just got his first mobile when he went to university and he will never use twitter or facebook, waste of time in his opinion and you can survive without any social media , generations have and what happens if the bully is not in NZ and there are multiple bullies, the whole law is just not workable.

Common sense is not as common as you think.

MikeB4

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#793512 4-Apr-2013 21:35

vexxxboy: i have 3 kids and none of them use social media or mobile phones , in fact my 18 year old just got his first mobile when he went to university and he will never use twitter or facebook, waste of time in his opinion and you can survive without any social media , generations have and what happens if the bully is not in NZ and there are multiple bullies, the whole law is just not workable.

at least someone is trying to something.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

DonGould

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#793530 4-Apr-2013 21:53

vexxxboy: ... what happens if the bully is not in NZ and there are multiple bullies, the whole law is just not workable.

The law is as workable as just about any other law out there.

All that's required is buy in from the industry, which it will get.

While sites my be located overseas, such as Facebook, the providers are still local and subject to the law.

Say my child is posting rubbish about your child on Facebook, you should simply be able to contact police, who should in turn take the issue up with me, assuming you're not comfortable to take it up with me directly. Personally I'd take the issue up with you directly and just point out that what your kid is doing is against the law. I assume that as you seem a reasonable person, you'd take the issue up with your child and we wouldn't be making any sort of issue about it... after all, kids will be kids.

If on the other hand, you choose to be a prick when I take it up with you, and you just ignore the police, then the court just takes up the issue with your provider, who terminates your access to Facebook (which at a guess would mean terminating your internet service with them, leaving you to find another provider and pay any penalties for early termination of a contract - hence sending you a message for being a prick).

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pebbles

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#793583 4-Apr-2013 22:41

vexxxboy:
Cyber bullying, on the other hand can start at 6.00am, go continuously through the day through to 2.00am. It can be via phone, facebook, gmail etc so multi points of simultaneous attack. And the number of bullies can increase exponentially. It starts as one person, then five of their “friends” join in, and then five of their Friends etc until a person is bombarded with hundreds of faceless bullying texts and emails etc pretty much anytime of day, any place with no one around to step in. A bullied person can try and hide by opening up a new account or changing phone number but the hiding place takes no time to find and within moments the bullies are at it again.

again if they dont want to be bullied stay of the internet and phones for a week or so if it's that much of a problem. sorry but the answer seems so simple, if you dont want to be consistently bullied by a person in cyber space, then stop having contact with them

It's not that easy though really, why should the victims be the one to have to leave because of bullies? If a kid was being bullied at the school should the solution be to remove the victim and have him move schools?

DaveDog

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#793676 5-Apr-2013 08:37

vexxxboy: im sorry but could someone explain to me how someone can get cyber bullied if they dont want to be, if it starts isn't just easy to delete your account , change your number/ email and start a new persona. Why let it carry on enough that you are seriously thinking of suicide. I would have thought bullying at school is a lot more insidious and no one seems to care about that to the extent of making it a serious criminal act.

Why should you have to do that?

DonGould

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#793694 5-Apr-2013 09:22

DaveDog:
vexxxboy: im sorry but could someone explain to me how someone can get cyber bullied if they dont want to be, if it starts isn't just easy to delete your account , change your number/ email and start a new persona. Why let it carry on enough that you are seriously thinking of suicide. I would have thought bullying at school is a lot more insidious and no one seems to care about that to the extent of making it a serious criminal act.

Why should you have to do that?

The simple answer is that you shouldn't and that's what this legislation is about.

It's clearly about moving the burden of change from the victim to the offender.

As for the minister, I agree that if she doesn't want to get criticized in forums such as this then she is going to need to put some considerable effort into a half way reasonable understanding of how to present the issues.

As I posted earlier, Internet New Zealand is putting considerable resource into supporting ministers in this space, though that doesn't just open the door to us all bullying the minister when she is in fact attempting to address a global issue that we all know is a problem that needs attention.

Let's support the minister rather than making her a victim of exactly the issues she's attempting to address.

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nunz

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#793710 5-Apr-2013 09:54

minimoke:
vexxxboy: im sorry but could someone explain to me how someone can get cyber bullied if they dont want to be, if it starts isn't just easy to delete your account , change your number/ email and start a new persona. Why let it carry on enough that you are seriously thinking of suicide. I would have thought bullying at school is a lot more insidious and no one seems to care about that to the extent of making it a serious criminal act.

Broadly speaking, a person in the school yard can get bullied by five people before school starts during breaks and after school. Its generally in one place – like behind the bike shed. There’s a remote chance someone might step in between the bully and victim.

Cyber bullying, on the other hand can start at 6.00am, go continuously through the day through to 2.00am. It can be via phone, facebook, gmail etc so multi points of simultaneous attack. And the number of bullies can increase exponentially. It starts as one person, then five of their “friends” join in, and then five of their
<snip>
A radical legislative suggestion which is totally impracticable is to require the bullied to bin all electronic devices and start communicating verbally.
<snip>
People just don’t seem to be grasping how they are opening up massive vulnerabilities by using electronic media. And its not just the young. There was an old fulla who was fired (successfully) after posting happy photos of himself at some event when he was supposed to be off sick.

My 2c worth.

to my way of thinking the difference between cyber bullying and free speach is can be broadly summed up as:
Cyber bullying is where someone reaches out and directly contacts the 'victim' (oh how I hate that word). for example, phoning someone up, sending emails, txts etc is a direct and clear communication - person to person. If a cease and disist doesnt work then you have legal recourse - (or should do).

Defamation is where someone targets another persons reputation in a public space. Now the difference here is between me saying something like, you idiot, why do you think that?" and "you are a tosser and your family are tossers and I am going to tell people your most embarrassing secrets" etc.

The biggest issue we face ( IMHO) is where defamation and criticism and a good old friendly flame war (remember them? Oh for the good old days). start and begin.

however, if a person is protesting about FACTS and not opinion - no issue. Obviously soliciting personal action against a single person is wrong (except maybe in the case of the protest against the chch based spammer a few years ago when he had tons of junk mail dumped on his front lawn). but there are legal avenues and corrct processes to follow. Limiting the exposure or criticism to the level of publicity it affects would seem like a good law guide.

The other side of the coin is the 'victims' collusion in the process. for example, the two aussie rpeorters who were involved in the nurses suicide by breaching the privacy of a royal in hospital. Tey were reported as 'suicidla, dpepressed etc' and suffering from all the tweets / facebook messages etc. Well DUH!!! Stop twittering and reading your facebook and you will stop being dperessed by it. If you are going to roll in the muck, excpect to get dirty. I've survived almost 45 years wthout a single tweet or FB post and y mental health is in reasonable condition (cause and effect? Who knows! :) )

so where does this leave fair go and campbell live? Surely their public humiliation of people across the whole of Nz for an issue with a single sale / contract could be construed as cyber bullying? Certainly camping on peoples front door after being told to shove off is.

Again - direct action against a person - cease and desist otherwise face consequences. Keep publicity to the level of impact of the FACTS you are writing about. THe rest is defamation and should be treated as such.

As for me - should any of you disagree with me I am going to sit in a corner and cry. Make sure you dont cyber bully me - i might go suicidal and my family just might sue your rear end into the paupers house. :)

PS - Freitasm - can we have a flame war forum? Please pretty plase? Happy to sign a no suicide waiver / promise.

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