Labour's "other" policy with significant potential for disruption

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#1869385 20-Sep-2017 14:06

sen8or:

Labours whole approach is to bolster the strength of the unions, ...

Yup - of Labour's 33 "Workplace" pledges for their first 12 months - 16 of them relate to Unions or Collectivism. It looks to be a significant drive back towards the industrial relations of the 70's & 80's.

networkn

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#1869396 20-Sep-2017 14:12

Rikkitic:

I am not defending Labour's position on this. I don't know enough. I don't know if the proposals are fair or even-handed. I do know that one-size-fits-all requirements centrally imposed by government are often ham-fisted and overbearing. Maybe this is a bad idea. I can't say. I would rather see something, if at all possible, that took more account of individual situations and circumstances.

I guess the real problem I have is that some people, specifically @networkn, seem to have decided they can't bear the thought of a Labour government under any circumstances, and are cherry-picking things to make the prospect of one look as disastrous as possible. I tend to feel the same way about a National government. I really, really don't want three more years of the same. National has been repeatedly caught out in lies and scandals. They are trying to blatantly buy the election. In terms of health, social welfare, housing, pollution and other issues important to all but those shielded from reality by wealth, the nine years of National government have been catastrophic for the well-being of New Zealand. I don't want more of that. I hope Labour wins. If they do, I hope their policies will be moderated as necessary to bring the most benefit to the most people. They have already shown a willingness to change their minds (yes, they are just cynically trying to maximise votes, etc. etc. - we have heard it before).

If National wins, I hope the effect of the election will be to moderate some of their more destructive policies. That would also be a win for New Zealand.

Holy Christopher Robin @rikkitic are you serious? NATIONAL is buying the election?! *labour* is the one offering free education and other crazy incentives. National has reacted, because it knows that on the whole voters are selfish and when offered a "better" deal will go to the other side, without taking into account everything else that changes or gets worse as a result. Not only is free Education a complete bribe and outrageous, when asked what would stop people getting free education then leaving for overseas, she shrugged her shoulders and said "well if it's nicer to live in NZ people will come back".

So she wants to get people educated, stop immigration, then allow our qualified people to leave. Who is going to build the 100,000 new low cost houses (another blatant bribe I don't think they can afford and that is clearly poorly thought out as analysts have said).

I am *not* cherry picking, I can give you a list of 10 legitimate reasons, one of which has just been explained, why NZ is way worse off under Labour. Instead of trying to understand or admitting that on the face of it, that it looks bad, you buried your head in the sand and said it was too complicated to comprehend.

When I vote, I vote taking into account what is best for everyone, not just me. I don't see too many people doing that. Most people, can only see to the end of their noses.

I am literally lost for words on how else I can respond to such an outrageous accusation that stays inside the FUG. Needless to say I hotly dispute your position.

gulfa

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#1869406 20-Sep-2017 14:26

Networkn

Employers: Are you one who thinks that because you pay them you should be able to control them and they should accept my conditions of employment?

or are you one who thinks that this person is making money for me I should look after them?

I want to throw industrials deaths and the huge number we have in our country as another reason workers need some protection what are your thoughts because you seem to have one on everything

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#1869417 20-Sep-2017 14:38

Rikkitic:

I hope Labour wins. If they do, I hope their policies will be moderated as necessary to bring the most benefit to the most people. They have already shown a willingness to change their minds (yes, they are just cynically trying to maximise votes, etc. etc. - we have heard it before).

So then why did you not vote for labour? I'm really scratching my head right now.

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#1869418 20-Sep-2017 14:43

gulfa:

Networkn

Employers: Are you one who thinks that because you pay them you should be able to control them and they should accept my conditions of employment?

or are you one who thinks that this person is making money for me I should look after them?

I want to throw industrials deaths and the huge number we have in our country as another reason workers need some protection what are your thoughts because you seem to have one on everything

Your last comment is just rude. Knock it off.

I have employed staff for 20 years, most of my staff stay long term. I have a good relationship with them I believe and I still have contact with them after they leave, so you can work that out for yourself. I have outlined my position on this already if you simply bother to read.

Ditching the 90 day trial period has nothing to do with solving industrial accidents. Neither does almost any of the other things they will enact if they are elected. We have a work and safety department and laws around this already.

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#1869421 20-Sep-2017 14:49

networkn:

Holy Christopher Robin @rikkitic are you serious? NATIONAL is buying the election?! *labour* is the one offering free education and other crazy incentives. National has reacted, because it knows that on the whole voters are selfish and when offered a "better" deal will go to the other side, without taking into account everything else that changes or gets worse as a result. Not only is free Education a complete bribe and outrageous, when asked what would stop people getting free education then leaving for overseas, she shrugged her shoulders and said "well if it's nicer to live in NZ people will come back".

So she wants to get people educated, stop immigration, then allow our qualified people to leave. Who is going to build the 100,000 new low cost houses (another blatant bribe I don't think they can afford and that is clearly poorly thought out as analysts have said).

I am *not* cherry picking, I can give you a list of 10 legitimate reasons, one of which has just been explained, why NZ is way worse off under Labour. Instead of trying to understand or admitting that on the face of it, that it looks bad, you buried your head in the sand and said it was too complicated to comprehend.

When I vote, I vote taking into account what is best for everyone, not just me. I don't see too many people doing that. Most people, can only see to the end of their noses.

I am literally lost for words on how else I can respond to such an outrageous accusation that stays inside the FUG. Needless to say I hotly dispute your position.

That's quite an explosion. Must be a raw nerve there somewhere.

I'm not even going to attempt to take this point by point, because there are just too many. A brief sampling, though, might include Joyce's cynical outright completely dishonest obfuscation regarding Labour's non-existent $13 billion budget hole, McCully's now proven Saudi sheep deal's lies, bribery and corruption, Bill's 'nationally significant' roads to nowhere, especially his mind-blowing $327 million per kilometre Auckland folly, the most expensive road anywhere in the world. And you accuse Labour of throwing money around!

Speaking of throwing money around, isn't it wonderful how National suddenly discovered all that added funding for housing, child poverty, mental health, etc. that somehow just did not exist for the past nine years? And you dare to accuse Labour of bribery.

When I vote, I also vote for everyone's best interests, not just those hanging out for another thousand dollars in their personal pocket. I am sincerely convinced that the best interests of New Zealand are served by not having another National government for the next three years.

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6FIEND

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#1869444 20-Sep-2017 14:50

Rikkitic:

I tend to feel the same way about a National government. I really, really don't want three more years of the same. National has been repeatedly caught out in lies and scandals. They are trying to blatantly buy the election.

Your feelings are your own, and you are 100% entitled to them. (and to share them with us :-)

...but just fact-checking your comment re buying the election:

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#1869456 20-Sep-2017 14:56

@Networkn you better off ignoring these two trolls. Nice post.

networkn

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#1869460 20-Sep-2017 15:02

Rikkitic:

That's quite an explosion. Must be a raw nerve there somewhere.

Funny you don't understand questioning peoples integrity tends to make them grumpy.

especially his mind-blowing $327 million per kilometre Auckland folly, the most expensive road anywhere in the world. And you accuse Labour of throwing money around!

Do you know a lot about road costs? Are you saying you wouldn't build it, or are you going to build it differently so it costs only $300M per KM? Has Labour said they won't build it?

They probably can't because they are going to stop immigration.

Speaking of throwing money around, isn't it wonderful how National suddenly discovered all that added funding for housing, child poverty, mental health, etc. that somehow just did not exist for the past nine years? And you dare to accuse Labour of bribery.

They didn't "discover" it, they saved it by being fiscally conservative despite some of the worst natural disasters in NZ history, and one of the worst financial crisis to ever hit the world. Now they have it to spend. Do you have some proof they weren't planning on offering this during the election time ?

Governments will assess situations continually and will adjust as required. Now is the time to be more socially focused, but you can't-do that without having money to spend.

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#1869466 20-Sep-2017 15:08

6FIEND:

...but just fact-checking your comment re buying the election:

This 'fact checking' is just more of the same crap propaganda. This is exactly the tactic alt-right uses in America. First, the Taxpayers Union (the organisation behind this) is a known right-wing lobby group. They can hardly be held up as a bastion of impartiality. Second, it is easy to twist 'facts' like this by conveniently ignoring other, perhaps more meaningful, facts. For example, why do the left parties want to spend more than the right ones? Is it maybe because the right parties have been flushing the country down the drain by not spending enough?

This 'fact' appears to present impartial information but it doesn't. It just presents another slanted point of view intended to deceive. That is what propaganda does. It would be better if it didn't pretend to be something it is not.

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networkn

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#1869469 20-Sep-2017 15:09

Rikkitic:

6FIEND:

...but just fact-checking your comment re buying the election:

This 'fact checking' is just more of the same crap propaganda. This is exactly the tactic alt-right uses in America. First, the Taxpayers Union (the organisation behind this) is a known right-wing lobby group. They can hardly be held up as a bastion of impartiality. Second, it is easy to twist 'facts' like this by conveniently ignoring other, perhaps more meaningful, facts. For example, why do the left parties want to spend more than the right ones? Is it maybe because the right parties have been flushing the country down the drain by not spending enough?

This 'fact' appears to present impartial information but it doesn't. It just presents another slanted point of view intended to deceive. That is what propaganda does. It would be better if it didn't pretend to be something it is not.

I'm sorry, WHAT!? Do you have one bit of evidence to refute what has been posted there? I seriously doubt it.

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#1869475 20-Sep-2017 15:13

Rikkitic:

6FIEND:

...but just fact-checking your comment re buying the election:

This 'fact checking' is just more of the same crap propaganda. This is exactly the tactic alt-right uses in America. First, the Taxpayers Union (the organisation behind this) is a known right-wing lobby group. They can hardly be held up as a bastion of impartiality. Second, it is easy to twist 'facts' like this by conveniently ignoring other, perhaps more meaningful, facts. For example, why do the left parties want to spend more than the right ones? Is it maybe because the right parties have been flushing the country down the drain by not spending enough?

This 'fact' appears to present impartial information but it doesn't. It just presents another slanted point of view intended to deceive. That is what propaganda does. It would be better if it didn't pretend to be something it is not.

The unions benefit massively from Labour's reforms. They are also their biggest donors. If you're going to hold the 'right' to a certain standard then at least be consistent about it.

Rikkitic

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#1869486 20-Sep-2017 15:21

networkn:

I'm sorry, WHAT!? Do you have one bit of evidence to refute what has been posted there? I seriously doubt it.

What's to refute? All they are doing is posting totals. Says nothing about what the money is for, or what good it might do. Go have a cup of coffee.

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Rikkitic

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#1869489 20-Sep-2017 15:23

GV27:

The unions benefit massively from Labour's reforms. They are also their biggest donors. If you're going to hold the 'right' to a certain standard then at least be consistent about it.

No problem there. If someone posts something similar from the unions, I will be happy to comment on it.

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networkn

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#1869495 20-Sep-2017 15:26

Rikkitic:

networkn:

I'm sorry, WHAT!? Do you have one bit of evidence to refute what has been posted there? I seriously doubt it.

What's to refute? All they are doing is posting totals. Says nothing about what the money is for, or what good it might do. Go have a cup of coffee.

So because they don't contain specific information they are automatically wrong?

If you actually look at it, the purpose is to show the basic layman what each partnership will cost every tax paying person in NZ. Doesn't need to specify what it is, just needs to talk about what it's going to cost.

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