Our PM Jacinda Ardern (and the government)

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#2887125 16-Mar-2022 12:57

Rikkitic:

though there certainly is an element of some individuals gleefully sticking the knife in. It is interesting to note how they are all piling on. Just like geese.

I'm keen to know if 'holding a party to their campaign promises' is now considered 'sticking the knife in'.

Could it be that people 'piling on' is just 'consensus I personally don't agree with'?

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#2887126 16-Mar-2022 12:58

Oh well, I guess Labour is to blame for most things, and they all could have been avoided I guess.

Will wait and see how the list of policies look from both parties

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#2887133 16-Mar-2022 13:18

Rikkitic:

I haven't got time right now. I'll come back to it later.

What I will say is that those who already don't like 'progressive' governments will gladly use any stick they can find to beat one with. I wonder what the dialogue would be like if National got in and produced exactly the same kinds of failures (which of course it would).

Then you should have said that, or nothing at all. Your post is every bit as characteristic of the geese things, but in reverse. Any time someone criticizes the Government or JA, you dismiss it entirely and attack the posters. I certainly didn't see you defending National or the attacks on John Key or his family when they were being vigorously opposed.

Promising to be progressive then not doing so, isn't progressive. Labour wouldn't currently fit most reasonable peoples definition of progressive IMO.

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#2887166 16-Mar-2022 14:22

Rikkitic:

I haven't got time right now. I'll come back to it later.

Sounds a lot like the Labour party way of dealing with issues too

As networkn said how about instead of writing stories about geese you come up with some actual input and or replies?

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#2887273 16-Mar-2022 16:34

Gee, another goose. Funny how the flock comes together when it senses a target.

On reflection, I have decided not to pursue this. I am old and I just don’t have the energy for this kind of debate any longer. But since I involved myself in this, I will at least attempt to explain what I feel and why, just in case anyone does actually care. After that, I am done with it.

Like many, I am disappointed with the government’s lack of achievements. I had high hopes, though lower expectations. I felt if any government had any chance of making real, structural change, an absolute parliamentary majority would be a once in a lifetime opportunity to bring that about. That hasn’t happened and it doesn’t look like it will. I doubt now it ever will, and that is a shame. They could have achieved so much.

I remain an unabashed fan of Jacinda Ardern. I think she possesses exceptional leadership qualities. Some of the things people criticize her for I see as indications of her prowess. For example, a willingness to change direction when events overtake. Some see that as lack of decisiveness. I think it is wisdom.

People have short memories. We live in the age of instant gratification. People get angry when they are told they have to wait. People are quick to forget that much of the PM’s time in office has been taken up with crisis management. They are quick to forget the example she set after the Christchurch massacre, and the way she has brought the country through the pandemic. They should try running a country and doing media stand-ups nearly every afternoon for months. They have no idea how hard that is, or how many hours she must work. Of course mistakes have been made. Some things could have been done better. But things also could have been much worse.

The geese seem to be jumping in to apportion blame, mainly to the PM but also to Ministers. Some of this is undoubtedly deserved. But I personally feel a lot is misplaced. I never place much credence in policy promises at election time and I don’t think it makes a lot of difference who gets elected. Regardless of the party, few if any promises will be realised, or will come about in recognisable form. Policy platforms are usually aspirational. They shouldn’t be taken too seriously.

I have to wonder if the real problem does not lie with our civil service. When governments change, so do Ministers, but the actual government departments and the people who run them do not. We are a small country and there just isn’t that much talent available, so a lot of people at lower levels who should be implementing policy just aren’t that good at it. This certainly seems to have been the case in parts of the Ministry of Health. Ministers and governments get the blame, but how easy is it to change course on a supertanker? I don’t know but this is what I ask myself. What good is an exceptional captain if the crew doesn’t listen to the commands? This applies regardless of the party in power.

Policy is not the same as ideology. I prefer a progressive government because I have slightly higher hope that it might actually pursue policies that appeal to me. But I don’t collapse in despair if the other side wins. Neither is a disaster.

For all of its failings, which I don’t dispute, I hope Labour, moderated by the Greens, forms the next government. Maybe they will have learned something from experience by then. I see them in any case as the lesser of evils. But if National gets in, the country won’t collapse. It will just take a few steps backwards again.

I do not believe National is the embodiment of evil. Some of their past policies I have supported. But I could never, ever vote for them. I just couldn’t. I detest what I believe to be their ideology. I hate the mindless obsession with roads over public transport. They still believe in trickle down economics, for christsake! A lot of people on this thread probably feel the same about Labour. Most of them, maybe.

Some people here just don’t like Labour, and the criticisms, whether justified or not, reflect that. It starts with not liking Labour, and then collecting the reasons why. I guess that is kind of how I feel about National and conservative politics in general.

I have passed the gate. Time to release the geese again.

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#2887320 16-Mar-2022 17:47

Rikkitic:
Like many, I am disappointed with the government’s lack of achievements. I had high hopes, though lower expectations. I felt if any government had any chance of making real, structural change, an absolute parliamentary majority would be a once in a lifetime opportunity to bring that about. That hasn’t happened and it doesn’t look like it will. I doubt now it ever will, and that is a shame. They could have achieved so much.

This is the bottom line for me, I to was looking forward to “transformational change” with the only majority parliament in many years.

Instead as you quite aptly put they haven’t nor to be honest have got anywhere near doing. I would even go so far as to say a lot of societies metrics have got worse.

Anyway, your one of the very few on here that admit labour’s failings so good on you for that.

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#2887334 16-Mar-2022 18:21

This is the Jacinda thread. Perhaps its time to post in the National party thread. I.e. post the positives for a new National Govt.

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#2887739 17-Mar-2022 16:32

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/128086762/labour-mps-block-justice-select-committee-hearing-on-parliament-riot

Open and transparent huh?

I don't think there is any downside to shining some light on the handling of this. Best case it exonerates those involved and their handling of it, worst case there are some learnings for how to handle it better next time.

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#2887790 17-Mar-2022 16:44

networkn:

I don't think there is any downside to shining some light on the handling of this. Best case it exonerates those involved and their handling of it, worst case there are some learnings for how to handle it better next time.

Yea, the next time thing matters more than anything else given the scale of the disruption and sheer lawlessness, given these communities of people aren't likely to just go back to being fine upstanding citizens and abandon their TG groups full of misinformation.

Although maybe at this point that makes it a GCSB matter, in which case I would understand why some bits of it would be probably looked into on the down-low.

I would, however, have liked to see it reviewed for the sake of the question of MPs and journalists receiving death threats for going about their business in our democratic precinct, and whether they require further and specific legal protection in the future. That seems ideal for the Justice Select Committee?

Either way, there's zero chance anyone can seriously have expected Ardern to meet with people threatening to hang her, so I'm not sure what adverse consequences they'd be knowingly avoiding, at least those that would actually be worse than being seen to be avoiding them, if that makes sense.

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#2887991 18-Mar-2022 08:34

tdgeek:

Oh well, I guess Labour is to blame for most things, and they all could have been avoided I guess.

Will wait and see how the list of policies look from both parties

Why bother? It doesn't seem like anyone expects parties to adhere to their policies or promises anyways? No accountability is required. If you criticize them you get attacked insulted, or both.

If you have made and failed to deliver on policies for 6 years, then why would anyone believe anything you have to say after that anyway?

All parties should create policies that are based on pure fantasy and offer coalition partners literally anything to get into Government and then we can all wonder why nothing gets done.

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#2888228 18-Mar-2022 13:34

I agree there does need to be a full public accounting of what happened, but is the Justice select committee and now the right venue and timing? Don't forget the IPCA has only just started looking at it. I think that another committee is also going to look at it. I think instead of rushing in to have a hearing now is not the right move but perhaps set up an inquiry with the right scope of what to look at should happen.

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#2890002 22-Mar-2022 12:25

Rikkitic:

I haven't got time right now. I'll come back to it later. What I will say is that those who already don't like 'progressive' governments will gladly use any stick they can find to beat one with. I wonder what the dialogue would be like if National got in and produced exactly the same kinds of failures (which of course it would).

I'm intrigued by your use of the term progressive. What do you mean by that? There's nothing progressive I can think of about this government.

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#2890008 22-Mar-2022 12:40

https://www.google.com/search?q=define+progressive&rlz=1C1GIVA_enNZ910NZ910&oq=define+progressive

Definition of progressive met.

People may not like what the Labour government is trying to change, after all, that is the definition of conservative https://www.google.com/search?q=define+conservative

but because this country is not perfect, they are trying to change things.

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#2890010 22-Mar-2022 12:47

You can be against changes being proposed (because you disagree with the direction or type of changes) and still be progressive, or at the very least not conservative.

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#2890011 22-Mar-2022 12:48

Rikkitic:

The geese seem to be jumping in to apportion blame, mainly to the PM but also to Ministers. Some of this is undoubtedly deserved. But I personally feel a lot is misplaced. I never place much credence in policy promises at election time and I don’t think it makes a lot of difference who gets elected. Regardless of the party, few if any promises will be realised, or will come about in recognisable form. Policy platforms are usually aspirational. They shouldn’t be taken too seriously.

I have to wonder if the real problem does not lie with our civil service. When governments change, so do Ministers, but the actual government departments and the people who run them do not. We are a small country and there just isn’t that much talent available, so a lot of people at lower levels who should be implementing policy just aren’t that good at it. This certainly seems to have been the case in parts of the Ministry of Health. Ministers and governments get the blame, but how easy is it to change course on a supertanker? I don’t know but this is what I ask myself. What good is an exceptional captain if the crew doesn’t listen to the commands? This applies regardless of the party in power.

Yes policy platforms are aspirational to some degree but they also have to be taken with some seriousness otherwise why announce them to start with? When those policies are enacted, as in Kiwi Build, there is a realistic expectation there will be a successful outcome. True it may not be as grand as the original plan but there is still an expectation of a worthwhile outcome. Instead we got a major fail.

Compare the outcome of the likes of Kiwi Build with the Think Big Projects. Chalk and cheese, one got done (which included several major projects) and one didn't. This government has had far too many failures like this.

I agree part of the problem could be in the Civil Service. That then begs the question that if there is a problem with the Civil Service as to why the government hasn't done anything to fix the problem. In fact if anything they have made the problem worse by scrapping the levels of accountability for the Civil Service that had been introduced by previous governments.

What good is an exceptional Captain if the crew doesn't listen to the commands?

I can tell you if this is happening then that person is not an exceptional Captain. Lesson 101 for being a good Captain is to be able to get your team to follow your commands.

Looking outside politics and taking a look at sporting teams. There are many many examples of where a poorly performing team has been turned around just by the introduction of a good leader. Blaming the Civil Service is a bit like a the old adage of "A good workman never blames his tools".

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