Our next national election - policies, promises and people

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336 posts

Ultimate Geek
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#2482995 13-May-2020 18:40

tdgeek:

I will probably get castigated, but I rate him highly. He knows his stuff. His goal is NZ. You won't get any scripted, generic, simple answers if you question him, he knows his stuff. Its about time we had politicians like him that are NZ focused. Not media focused, or vote focussed. If he told me we are screwed we need to suck it up, I'd buy that. Thats rare in politics.

I have to agree. Tomorrow will be the day of reckoning as an election budget would be quite different from a crisis, job or recession budget. To this point I think they've tried to be responsible and well-considered while having to make decisions on the hoof.

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#2482997 13-May-2020 18:42

Fred99:

tdgeek:

I will probably get castigated, but I rate him highly. He knows his stuff. His goal is NZ. You won't get any scripted, generic, simple answers if you question him, he knows his stuff. Its about time we had politicians like him that are NZ focused. Not media focused, or vote focussed. If he told me we are screwed we need to suck it up, I'd buy that. Thats rare in politics.

I'm not rating him poorly. He's got an impossible job to do - in an unprecedented turbulent environment. Whatever he gets wrong (and chances are a lot - because you'd need to be the genuine Nostradamus to score a few hits on the nail head) - the opposition will be merciless.

100%. Its a pity that someone who can make the best of bad situations (virus and the financial impact) and potentially be seen as the failure (as he held the badge at the time). Its not that often that you get people who want to do the right thing and are talented and are knowledgable in politics. He has that. As you say, the situations right now will probably see him cut down for not getting it 90% right. If he got it 65% right that would be excellent.

DaveDog

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Ultimate Geek
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#2482998 13-May-2020 18:44

Fred99:

So why does this happen? I was born at the tail end of the baby boom. I've never failed to vote in a GE when living in NZ. I seriously doubt that any of my similar aged friends have either. I wouldn't accept an assumption that older people tend to vote because they're old. Young people don't vote for other reasons. That's frightening.

I wish I knew the answer.

Elections NZ and every political party and candidate (at both national and local levels) would love to have an answer to this...

I've heard lots of theories - it's too hard to vote (nonsense), online voting would fix it (nonsense), no one to vote for (nonsense again)...

Handle9

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#2483001 13-May-2020 18:50

tdgeek:

Handle9:

What on earth does health and education have to do with the mix of taxation? There is no suggestion that New Zealand is over taxed, just that far too much comes from consumption tax.

OK, my bad, you focussed just on GST, my post was on taxation generally. Tax is tax. Income is income. The net benefit is net salary. Where health in the form of Govt provided or buy medical insurance is pertinent. Free education is pertinent. NZ is highly taxed. Thats includes free education and health. So are we highly taxed if we consider heath and education as a right that everybody should be able to receive?

Please forego the LOL and what on earth's. Its a discussion. I am well aware of your many posts. I dont get why you have become so angry and negative. Its a discussion. Ive noticed that here from others. Maybe its the virus, maybe its cabin fever, but I've seem many posts from many people that I respect going overboard. Just my opinion

Did you read the post you quoted?

There is no suggestion New Zealanders are overtaxed. You've then proceeded to write a post about whether New Zealanders are overtaxed. This is irrelevant to what I wrote.

If you would like to have a discussion please respond to what other people have written when you quote them, otherwise don't quote them.

Fred99

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#2483002 13-May-2020 18:51

dejadeadnz:

proceeds to violate the FUG by calling another poster names.

I've read countless posts in this thread referring to "boomers" in the pejorative - including from you. According to some definitions I was born in the post WW2 baby boom, thus could be called a "boomer". I find that just as offensive as if you referred to me as a n****** if I'm not snow white enough. I can do nothing about my age or my skin colour - you've referred to "boomers" despite my clear objection and pointing out it's a breach of FUG.

I don't know who your referring to or what was said - but please don't cite the FUG when you're culpable.

tdgeek

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#2483003 13-May-2020 18:53

dejadeadnz:

tdgeek:

OK, my bad, you focussed just on GST, my post was on taxation generally. Tax is tax. Income is income.

No matter how many times you post a cute punchline, it doesn't make it worthwhile or relevant. $10 in GST collected from a low income beneficiary is highly damaging to her well-being and regressive; $10 in CGT on a high income person is highly affordable and makes no material difference to the person's life. The categorisation of the income received by the government might stay the same but the social outcomes, issues of distributive justice, and the like involved are complex and materially different.

And the only angry person here is the one caught out making a non-sequitur and who then proceeds to violate the FUG by calling another poster names.

Edit: Fixed some typos. Got distracted.

I apologise if my post to you, i.e angry, is offensive. I have no need to call people names. But IMHO your posts are angry. You can feel free to tell me my opinion is incorrect and why, in a calm and adult way. Or you can refer to me and others as "if you had a brain" (I cant be bothered with looking up the exact verbatim(s). )

As Ive said, its a discussion.

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Rikkitic

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#2483006 13-May-2020 18:55

I am also getting a bit tired of the constant boomer digs. I am a boomer, I have always voted progressive, usually Greens, and I have no capital wealth whatsoever. We don't all fit the stereotypes. In fact, most people usually don't.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

dejadeadnz

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#2483011 13-May-2020 19:00

Fred99:

I've read countless posts in this thread referring to "boomers" in the pejorative - including from you. According to some definitions I was born in the post WW2 baby boom, thus could be called a "boomer". I find that just as offensive as if you referred to me as a n****** if I'm not snow white enough. I can do nothing about my age or my skin colour - you've referred to "boomers" despite my clear objection and pointing out it's a breach of FUG.

I don't know who your referring to or what was said - but please don't cite the FUG when you're culpable.

Reference to someone's age is problematic (morally) only if decision-making/judgement as to the person's character is conclusively rendered by reference solely to the person's age. Your age is your age. Boomers typically refer to people born, as you say, during the post WWII baby boom period. That's just an objective classification. It implies no more or less than that. So what am I guilty of again, Your Highness? Offending your feelings? The very fact that you're actually descending to comparing the word "boomer" to the N-bomb reveals the utter moral and reasoning bankruptcy of your argument. The N-bomb has well known connotations that persons within the group are inherently inferior by "reason" solely of their race. How am I doing something morally comparable? Go on, give it your best shot.

If you basically demand to not be offended, that's cool but it's unlikely you'll get your wish in the 21st century. And the world is so much better for it.

GV27

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#2483012 13-May-2020 19:00

Rikkitic:

I am also getting a bit tired of the constant boomer digs. I am a boomer, I have always voted progressive, usually Greens, and I have no capital wealth whatsoever. We don't all fit the stereotypes. In fact, most people usually don't.

I think it's more evolved to be a description for a certain attitude toward the realities of life that many people face than a strictly age-related term now. I certainly see it being levelled more and more at people my age who are just out of touch who are clearly not born soon after WW2.

tdgeek

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#2483031 13-May-2020 19:06

Handle9:

Did you read the post you quoted?

There is no suggestion New Zealanders are overtaxed. You've then proceeded to write a post about whether New Zealanders are overtaxed. This is irrelevant to what I wrote.

If you would like to have a discussion please respond to what other people have written when you quote them, otherwise don't quote them.

You are correct. apologies, genuinely. All I am seeing here is anger, from many, so yes, I went off track. I;ll go back to my school report. Has talent, needs to concentrate.

:-)

On a serious note, Ive not seen GZ get this anxious. Yes, we have all seen the arguments that cover a few pages, then someone gets ticked off, by others or the Mods. But Ive seen it change lately. It seems to align with Covid-19. Something has changed the dynamic, and the impact of the virus on all of us has been huge. Direct for some, subtle for others, but that what I feel for what its worth.

dejadeadnz

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#2483056 13-May-2020 19:39

DaveDog:

I'd be reluctant to lay this at the feet of the boomers though. The Boomers have been reasonably motivated to have a coordinated voting and lobby block, they've successfully made a fuss when things don't go their way and have in some cases been effective at lobbying. In comparison, youth are disorganised, unmotivated and generally apathetic.

Let's assume for the moment that you are right about the young people. So bloody what even if all that is true? A moral, mature, other-regarding, and equality-oriented society requires people in position of strength to actually look past their actual advantaged position and not unduly abuse it (now that is a high moral standard and difficult to live up to when doing it isn't to your personal advantage, I fully acknowledge that). Otherwise, it's purely an example of "Hey I got the advantage first and I will never give it up" or "Might is right!". And if you start off far behind in the race of life, how much motivation do you think you would have to get yourself organised? There are plenty of psychological studies which show that a perceived or actually unfair society has a significant effect upon people's mental well-being, especially when you are on the losing end of the ledger.

Christ, people like Rawls didn't postulate the notion of a Veil of Ignorance for nothing.

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Rikkitic

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#2483130 13-May-2020 20:43

Will you guys PLEASE take this pissing contest to the Feud thread I set up especially for that purpose? You are way off topic and it is really getting annoying. I don't want to have to ask to also have this thread locked. I am getting very tired of having my threads derailed this way.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

DaveDog

336 posts

Ultimate Geek
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#2483134 13-May-2020 20:46

dejadeadnz:

DaveDog:

I'd be reluctant to lay this at the feet of the boomers though. The Boomers have been reasonably motivated to have a coordinated voting and lobby block, they've successfully made a fuss when things don't go their way and have in some cases been effective at lobbying. In comparison, youth are disorganised, unmotivated and generally apathetic.

Let's assume for the moment that you are right about the young people. So bloody what even if all that is true? A moral, mature, other-regarding, and equality-oriented society requires people in position of strength to actually look past their actual advantaged position and not unduly abuse it (now that is a high moral standard and difficult to live up to when doing it isn't to your personal advantage, I fully acknowledge that). Otherwise, it's purely an example of "Hey I got the advantage first and I will never give it up" or "Might is right!". And if you start off far behind in the race of life, how much motivation do you think you would have to get yourself organised? There are plenty of psychological studies which show that a perceived or actually unfair society has a significant effect upon people's mental well-being, especially when you are on the losing end of the ledger.

Christ, people like Rawls didn't postulate the notion of a Veil of Ignorance for nothing.

Warning... Horrific assumption to follow...

I'm happy to assume I'm right about the "young people" but I'm also happy to add in that in the materialistic society in which we live that it's safe to say that people in the position of strength think about the dollar and their bank balances... Exploiting those beneath them, be they employees, youth or other groups seems to be be socially acceptable, easy and largely accepted by society as a whole...

Do I think that's ok... Not on your life...

dejadeadnz

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#2483137 13-May-2020 20:47

@Fred99

Seeing that you currently consider yourself above the rules, I will rise above your literary equivalent of a rubbish heap and just point out the obvious:

1. We have someone apparently of boomer age, judging by a profile photo, posting essentially to the effect that youths are disorganised, useless and the like and therefore somehow the state of affairs where boomers have all the advantage is, err, okay. See here.

2. You have yourself basically defended the notion that since everyone pursues self-interest, since the boomers apparently do a rather good job of it, all is okay. See here. You claim that you don't like it but when people point out the obvious fact that boomers as a group in general do exactly what I asserted (this doesn't necessarily mean that every boomer contributes equally or that every random person in the group randomly located necessarily engage in that behaviour), you get your panties in as bind over multiple pages and randomly call people bigots?

What have you done in your life to fight for the disadvantaged again? I suggest you get off your imaginary high horse and respect the fact that people can actually read your posts.

dejadeadnz

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#2483138 13-May-2020 20:52

DaveDog:

I'm happy to assume I'm right about the "young people" but I'm also happy to add in that in the materialistic society in which we live that it's safe to say that people in the position of strength think about the dollar and their bank balances... Exploiting those beneath them, be they employees, youth or other groups seems to be be socially acceptable, easy and largely accepted by society as a whole...

Do I think that's ok... Not on your life...

Okay, I will happily take you on face value and accept that you don't think the exploitation of the advantageous state of affairs by that group is not okay. But it doesn't change the fact that, as a general observation, the boomers and up are more than happy to drive home those unearned advantages politically.

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