Christopher Luxon, New Zealand Prime Minister 2023

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#3172039 15-Dec-2023 12:18

tdgeek:

Very fitting. It shows that all Lawmakers need to step up. There is some government bill evaluation process, cannot recall what it is, RIS, RIF or whatever, I see that is being dumped, which wont help either

If that's the same government evaluation process that's been leading to undeliverable projects being announced with little chance of success then there's probably some questions around that too.

I don't understand why this is so difference to the huge explosion in cost to the Auckland Light Rail project which was bastardised to the extent that it was no longer viable but from what I can tell the main difference is this is Wellington being told 'no' for once and therefore the tone of discussion and level of scrutiny is far different.

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#3172044 15-Dec-2023 12:27

GV27:

tdgeek:

Very fitting. It shows that all Lawmakers need to step up. There is some government bill evaluation process, cannot recall what it is, RIS, RIF or whatever, I see that is being dumped, which wont help either

If that's the same government evaluation process that's been leading to undeliverable projects being announced with little chance of success then there's probably some questions around that too.

I don't understand why this is so difference to the huge explosion in cost to the Auckland Light Rail project which was bastardised to the extent that it was no longer viable but from what I can tell the main difference is this is Wellington being told 'no' for once and therefore the tone of discussion and level of scrutiny is far different.

I don't think its about Auckland or Wellington. In my opinion, governments like to say we will do this, gets positive public attention. And as they all seem to take an age, costs will blow out. Inflation like now, costs will blow out, taking the cheap options that Salty alluded to, costs will blow out. There is a gap between good government news, and the reality of a build or a project. The only people that lack expertise are MP's, its on them

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#3172046 15-Dec-2023 12:29

GV27:

If that's the same government evaluation process that's been leading to undeliverable projects being announced with little chance of success then there's probably some questions around that too.

No, that's a different thing, the Regulatory Impact Statement, which Act was very much in favour of until waiting for them to be completed would have gotten in the way of repealing everything the other team did in 100 days.

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#3172048 15-Dec-2023 12:39

SaltyNZ:

No, that's a different thing, the Regulatory Impact Statement, which Act was very much in favour of until waiting for them to be completed would have gotten in the way of repealing everything the other team did in 100 days.

This link is from seven years ago. Do you have anything slightly more recent than that?

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#3172049 15-Dec-2023 12:44

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/12/lloyd-burr-opinion-christopher-luxon-s-ferry-snub-shows-he-s-all-talk-on-infrastructure.html

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#3172051 15-Dec-2023 12:59

GV27:

This link is from seven years ago. Do you have anything slightly more recent than that?

That's right, it's from when they thought RIS was a good thing. This link is from now, where they won't be doing any RIS before executing their manifesto.

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#3172055 15-Dec-2023 13:12

SaltyNZ:

That's right, it's from when they thought RIS was a good thing. This link is from now, where they won't be doing any RIS before executing their manifesto.

The rest of the manifesto has little to do with the Cook Strait decision and as noted elsewhere, Robertson and Treasury had already expressed concerns about escalations in costs.

I'm not sure why the rational behind every other policy decision National makes need to be explained before you consider this decision on its own merits.

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#3172074 15-Dec-2023 13:26

GV27:

The rest of the manifesto has little to do with the Cook Strait decision and as noted elsewhere, Robertson and Treasury had already expressed concerns about escalations in costs.

I'm not sure why the rational behind every other policy decision National makes need to be explained before you consider this decision on its own merits.

I guess in the same way me saying a lot of things that sound partisan makes you assume that everything I say is partisan, the fact that nearly everything they are doing is partisan fan-service makes me assume that everything they are doing is partisan fan-service.

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#3172102 15-Dec-2023 14:35

Isn't New Zealand Rail an SOE? In other words a government owned business.

Why are they going cap in hand to the government for all of this money? Like any other business why don't they go to the normal financial market sources to fund these projects? Perhaps there may be a government top up for any "social service" or betterment for the country in general that deserves a contribution from the government.

If it doesn't stack up financially then why do it at all?

While on the face of it it seems the Finance Minister is being "difficult" over this I think there needs to be some checks and balances on where our tax dollars are spent. The angst in our media over this needs to better directed. NZR needs to learn to operate like any other business and not expect the government to bail them out.

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#3172104 15-Dec-2023 14:39

Technofreak:

The angst in our media over this needs to better directed. NZR needs to learn to operate like any other business and not expect the government to bail them out.

Come now, surely Mr. I-used-to-run-an-airline should understand how SOEs might still need bailouts on account of their continued existence has wider importance than mere profitability.

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#3172106 15-Dec-2023 14:45

Technofreak:

Isn't New Zealand Rail an SOE? In other words a government owned business.

Why are they going cap in hand to the government for all of this money? Like any other business why don't they go to the normal financial market sources to fund these projects? Perhaps there may be a government top up for any "social service" or betterment for the country in general that deserves a contribution from the government.

If it doesn't stack up financially then why do it at all?

I suspect it's like all major works. They don't actually stack up financially. But I view stuff like public transport as something that should be subsidized by taxpayers. In one Whatsapp group I'm in where it's all about user pays I often point out the costs between my mother and I who both got hip replacements at the same time. The ruthlessly efficient probably ought to have doled out a decade's worth of pain pills to my mother and only fix my hip. After all, I'll be paying taxes for the next thirty years or so. Whereas dear old Mum is on the cusp of super so save some money on an expensive operation.

I mean the bottom line is ultimately the consumer would wind up paying otherwise. Either ship goods to the North and South Island and disperse or pay slightly less to have the ship berth once and then need a reliable Strait crossing service.

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#3172108 15-Dec-2023 14:50

SaltyNZ:

Technofreak:

The angst in our media over this needs to better directed. NZR needs to learn to operate like any other business and not expect the government to bail them out.

Come now, surely Mr. I-used-to-run-an-airline should understand how SOEs might still need bailouts on account of their continued existence has wider importance than mere profitability.

There's a slight difference between a force majeure and replacements/upgrades which should be planned and budgeted for.

P.S.

I don't think the government bailed out Air NZ during Christopher's tenure. That said the bail out from the Ansett collapse was repaid in spades.

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#3172109 15-Dec-2023 14:55

mudguard:

I suspect it's like all major works. They don't actually stack up financially. But I view stuff like public transport as something that should be subsidized by taxpayers. In one Whatsapp group I'm in where it's all about user pays I often point out the costs between my mother and I who both got hip replacements at the same time. The ruthlessly efficient probably ought to have doled out a decade's worth of pain pills to my mother and only fix my hip. After all, I'll be paying taxes for the next thirty years or so. Whereas dear old Mum is on the cusp of super so save some money on an expensive operation.

I mean the bottom line is ultimately the consumer would wind up paying otherwise. Either ship goods to the North and South Island and disperse or pay slightly less to have the ship berth once and then need a reliable Strait crossing service.

With some exceptions I generally agree and I alluded to that in my post.

This particular situation doesn't look like a subsidy to me.

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#3172111 15-Dec-2023 14:58

Technofreak:

There's a slight difference between a force majeure and replacements/upgrades which should be planned and budgeted for.

Maybe so, but having already been bailed out before that, they should have planned ahead so they could weather the next storm. Or at least that's what the 'personal responsibility' types like to say about poor people and their avocado toast.

Either way, the point is: some public goods are not about making money. The benefits they accrue to society outweigh any nominal profits returned to the government as cash. KiwiRail is one of those. The benefit to the people of the South Island (and the North, for that matter) of having KiwiRail & the InterIslander service available is greater than profit.

This is the same reason why many experts believe public transport should be free at the point of access. Society as a whole is better off having free public transport than having public transport with fees.

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#3172116 15-Dec-2023 15:14

SaltyNZ:

Either way, the point is: some public goods are not about making money. The benefits they accrue to society outweigh any nominal profits returned to the government as cash. KiwiRail is one of those. The benefit to the people of the South Island (and the North, for that matter) of having KiwiRail & the InterIslander service available is greater than profit.

I agree in principle with the first part of your post but not to the extent of providing a service for the sake of the service where there is no proper demand.

Bluebridge seem to be able to do it without government money and make a profit. Why not NZR?

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