Incompetent Ministers

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#793712 5-Apr-2013 10:00

As for the minister, I agree that if she doesn't want to get criticized in forums such as this then she is going to need to put some considerable effort into a half way reasonable understanding of how to present the issues.

As I posted earlier, Internet New Zealand is putting considerable resource into supporting ministers in this space, though that doesn't just open the door to us all bullying the minister when she is in fact attempting to address a global issue that we all know is a problem that needs attention.

Let's support the minister rather than making her a victim of exactly the issues she's attempting to address.

Agreed - She might have made a dumb statement but to blanket her with personal abuse is wrong. Its like teasing retards (oops did I just say that?). However, I would say most of the criticisms have been around performance not personal. Opening your mouth in public and saying dumb things while acting in a public role / govt capacity needs to be addressed.

Maybe the correct way would be to contact her and politely educate her on what she said and did and then help her understand the implications. Give her a chance to open mouth and remove foot.

Oh dear - my politically correct brain washed mind is fighting my desire to jeer and stupidity. Arrgghhh!!!! its all too much. The politicaly correct have bullied me into being a morally spineless jelly fish of a person ( see cant even call myself a man any more ). where is my gun - I feel a suicidal tendancy coming on. Oh crud - it got taken away as well - thank pharmac for prozac.

DonGould

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#793713 5-Apr-2013 10:02

nunz: Now the difference here is between me saying something like, you idiot, why do you think that?" and "you are a tosser and your family are tossers and I am going to tell people your most embarrassing secrets" etc.

I don't agree with you. Personally I think both of those statements are as bad as each other.

Had you said: "I don't get the impression you're fully across the issues" rather than "You idiot".

The statement 'you idiot' is projecting a fact that may not be in play.

What we're talking about here is about being assertive rather than aggressive.

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DonGould

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#793716 5-Apr-2013 10:06

nunz: Agreed - She might have made a dumb statement but to blanket her with personal abuse is wrong. Its like teasing retards (oops did I just say that?). However, I would say most of the criticisms have been around performance not personal. Opening your mouth in public and saying dumb things while acting in a public role / govt capacity needs to be addressed.

Maybe the correct way would be to contact her and politely educate her on what she said and did and then help her understand the implications. Give her a chance to open mouth and remove foot.

I suspect that it's only those with the awareness of the issues to the level that we have here on GZ, that will be picking up just how silly some comments may be, so we do need to keep that in perspective.

I do agree that the issues need to be discussed, but I think the focus needs to be on win/win not 'bash the stupid polly because we can and we think we're elitist'.

I will draw this thread to the attention of the INZ team that are working with the ministers.

D

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nunz

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#793719 5-Apr-2013 10:12

DonGould:
nunz: Now the difference here is between me saying something like, you idiot, why do you think that?" and "you are a tosser and your family are tossers and I am going to tell people your most embarrassing secrets" etc.

I don't agree with you. Personally I think both of those statements are as bad as each other.

Had you said: "I don't get the impression you're fully across the issues" rather than "You idiot".

The statement 'you idiot' is projecting a fact that may not be in play.

What we're talking about here is about being assertive rather than aggressive.

Agreed - but in the heat of an argument / discussion people can be pejorative - the difference is one addresses a fact, the other is just plain abuse.

BTW - Idiot - Middle English, from Anglo-French ydiote, from Latin idiota ignorant person, from Greek idiotes one in a private station, layman, ignorant person,

I tend to be literal in my language. for example I am proud to be a luddite :) but am not a troglodyte except for the resemblence in my workspace.

DonGould

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#793731 5-Apr-2013 10:17

nunz: Agreed - but in the heat of an argument / discussion people can be pejorative - the difference is one addresses a fact, the other is just plain abuse.

Agreed.

To me, this legislation proposal is about the fact that to many people are simply crossing the line and we now need to start pulling the rains back because to much harm is being caused.

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OrphanAnnie

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#793786 5-Apr-2013 11:52

How long do you think it will be before those doing the online bullying catch on to elite proxies? Minutes or hours?

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nunz

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#793802 5-Apr-2013 12:19

OrphanAnnie: How long do you think it will be before those doing the online bullying catch on to elite proxies? Minutes or hours?

most bullies are not technically clever or they think they are but are still easy to track. Proxies, anonymisers etc - all work but are rarely used for cyber bullying etc. Most bullying is aobut as clever as hiding behind a shed to thump someone - and not recognising that teachers know aobut sheds too.

Content is as much a pointer to a bully as IP packet headers / mail headers etc.

also - if bullies use a proxy etc it shows a real criminal intent, planning. execution with malice etc. most bullies are less likely to take that step. Bullying is often opportunist, not a clearly cut and technically executed desicion to ruin someones life.

Lastly, bullies want to witness their handywork, why else do it. It limits the pools of suspects substantially and reasonalbe / reposnsible social media should probably ban anonymous IPs etc.

DonGould

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#793989 5-Apr-2013 17:25

Internet New Zealand has made another press release on these issues that I think some here will find of interest.

Cyberbullying proposals: education focus welcome, fishhooks remain, and workability must be paramount

Media release - 5 April 2013

This release is available online at http://tinyurl.com/cgq8xqv

InternetNZ (Internet New Zealand Inc) welcomes the focus on education and the role of the approved agency in the Government's recently-announced proposal for dealing with harmful digital communications. At the same time, however, the proposal potentially signals significant risks to Internet businesses and end-users.

A Cabinet paper published yesterday spells out a role for "Internet entities" in the proposed new scheme to crack down on electronic communications considered to be harmful.

“While the cyberbullying proposal takes a positive step in fostering good digital citizenship among New Zealanders, some implications for Internet businesses in the new scheme lack clarity, and there are things in the proposal that people won’t be aware of, but may find concerning," says InternetNZ spokesperson Susan Chalmers.

There are some serious concerns raised by some of the proposals in the Cabinet paper regarding which 'Internet entities' may be affected.

Do New Zealanders want web-based email services to be subject to take-down orders? Do people understand that such orders, as outlined in the Cabinet paper, could be based on lower legal standards than is the case today – and could be imposed on people without them being part of the Court’s proceedings?

On the question of intermediaries, generally speaking these companies facilitate transactions between third parties on the Internet. Your traditional ISP like Telecom or Vodafone is one type of Internet intermediary. Facebook is another. Search engines are yet another. They are quite different businesses, capable of different roles in the proposed scheme.

While the Cabinet paper reflects a general understanding that there are different types of ‘Internet entities’, it appears to assume that they're all capable of helping in the same way - of taking down content, when that is not the case.

It is important to clearly understand the detail of the Internet environment before legislating for it. For this legislation to be workable, it needs to be crystal clear on who, exactly, they want to involve in taking down harmful content and how they expect that to be done. Treating ‘Internet entities’ under law as all the same would not work.

These are just some of the fishhooks that need to be sorted out to make these proposals more workable. Law and policy should work with the architecture of the Internet, not against it. The proposal does not yet meet that standard – but it can be improved so that it does.

“Done right, New Zealand law in this area could become a model for other countries to follow," says Chalmers. “Done wrong, the problems it will create for society could grow to become just as concerning as the problem of harmful digital communications it is trying to solve.”

InternetNZ looks forward to working with officials, the Minister and the Select Committee to tackle these concerns and see New Zealand leading the world in making the Internet a safer place for all.

For more information contact:

Susan Chalmers
Spokesperson
InternetNZ
susan@internetnz.net.nz
021 284 7065

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DonGould

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#793990 5-Apr-2013 17:28

Personally, I think email systems should be subject to take down orders.

Clearly the message that bullying is not ok, and what bullying actually is, has not got though to the general public.

It concerns me that ISPs just want to ignore these issues, such as they wanted to ignore copyright issues.

I agree that we don't want to allow government regulation to result in a captured internet, but I do think that the general public needs to start to capture it's internet.

Yes there is a balance to be found here as Susan points out, but not at the expense of letting parties just ignore these issues.

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Linuxluver

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#793997 5-Apr-2013 17:45

SaltyNZ: Unfortunately 'minister not having the first clue' is the rule, not the exception. We elect about a hundred people to make rules about everything that affects our daily lives. How can they be expected to understand it all? That's why we also have a civil service: it's *their* job to be the experts on all the details. A wise minister doesn't need to be an expert on everything; he or she needs to listen to the advisers.

So, it's not so much that Judith Collins doesn't understand the internet that worries me; it's that she doesn't understand the internet *and* apparently didn't bother to pay attention in school.

Democracy itself is facing the same issue (if not a full blown crisis).

Most people know very little about almost everything...yet are expected to vote intelligently for representatives.

Referenda are even more challenging as they require every voter to understand the detail and nuance of a specific issue....probably based on no knowledge at all or a couple of TV debates where discussion is cut off the moment it comes remotely close to being detailed.

Either more people have to be curious and think...or we are going to be governed by people who know little, elected by people who know less.

Given the events since 2008 on important issues like climate change, tax cuts, the environment and asset sales........I'd suggest we're already there and 5 years into it.

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Linuxluver

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#794000 5-Apr-2013 17:50

SaltyNZ:
khull:

Would you let the government put buffoons manage portfolios that affect the entire country and a 6 figure salary to go with it?

Unfortunately, that's what a government IS.

Personally I believe Parliament should be selected completely at random from everyone on the electoral roll. Far better representative of the people.

Good idea. Then we would find out how emotionally fragile / immature, damaged, lazy, ignorant and essentially incompetent (as managers) most people really are.

Unfortunately.

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DonGould

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#794002 5-Apr-2013 17:53

Linuxluver: Either more people have to be curious and think...

This is exactly what we do need people to be.

We are living in an information age and we need to be doing more and more to challenge people to be curious and think and then speak up.

But the issue here is about speaking up in an appropriate way, which does also require real education.

We need to talk more and more about how to just talk.

Telling a person who is bullied to just ignore it doesn't cut it. We need to teach them how to respond.

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OrphanAnnie

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#794072 5-Apr-2013 20:48

You know, I'm getting a bit tired of hearing about "Internet Bullying" and victims.

You say to teach them how to respond Don. Prior the advent of Internet in NZ, bullying existed in every school. Was that before your time? If so I'll tell you how we were taught to respond.

For starters our parents didnt front up to schools on our behalf. Christ to tell our parents was tantamount to asking for a punch in the mouth and being tormented further and I believe that is true today. We fought our own battles and were told by our parents if someone hits you, hit em back. Ok, you win some you lose some but either way at least you has some self respect for standing up for yourself.

As I see it, the issue is now far more complex than bullying. It involves drugs and alcohol and that's what is pushing kids over the edge.

nunz

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#794894 8-Apr-2013 11:02

OrphanAnnie: You know, I'm getting a bit tired of hearing about "Internet Bullying" and victims.

You say to teach them how to respond Don. Prior the advent of Internet in NZ, bullying existed in every school. Was that before your time? If so I'll tell you how we were taught to respond.

For starters our parents didnt front up to schools on our behalf. Christ to tell our parents was tantamount to asking for a punch in the mouth and being tormented further and I believe that is true today. We fought our own battles and were told by our parents if someone hits you, hit em back. Ok, you win some you lose some but either way at least you has some self respect for standing up for yourself.

As I see it, the issue is now far more complex than bullying. It involves drugs and alcohol and that's what is pushing kids over the edge.

In general I agree but.....
I have a son who is a mans boy, he is physical, fun loving, mischeivious, exploring, active etc etc. At school he is expected to behave in more feminine ways (sit still, cooperate, read, reflect, work cooperatively, etc). Most men are biologically geared to action (often without too much forethought grin) We often learn best by doing, imitating, exploring etc.

The same for solving problems. I got my head handed to me a few times, often for sticking up for one of my mates. I was absolutely useless in a fight but the fact I would stand up bought me some measure of mana. Unfortunately it seems to today verbal bullying is not slammed as hard as physical bullying. My boy gets mouthed at, goes off and then cops it as he lashes ut / hits etc. When go away doesnt work he pushes. This is not acceptable today.

Internet bullying legislation is the first step towards addressing verbal and non physical bullying. Personally I would like to go around and punch who ever hurts my kids in the head, but failing that removing the ability to bully is a good step. If my kids bully via the internet I would remove it from them. However not all parents are so proactive in managing their own children.

Unfortunately schools are often complicit in the bullying by doing nothing. I had a case where an organised txt, facebook and phone attack were perpetrated on a friends daughter. I hunted the SOB organising it down and the school didnt want to know. So I then went further, found every instance of the main bullies email accounts, FB accounts and cell phones as well as her parents accounts / phones etc and sent a message on each nad every one that continued messages from any of these devices to the daughter or messages to school friends defaming the daughter would be taken to the poilce / court etc. I also pointed out it wouldnt do their immigration chances any good if this behaviour came to light. I further pointed out should the fathers employer receive a list of what was going on it would not do his career any good.

In effect I bullied them back - I used a big stick to threaten them with. It worked. What would have been nicer is if the parents and school had done thier job and my services were not required. Hopefully decent legislation and guidelines, clear policies and processes etc will render my services un-necessary. I certainly hope so.

There are times when it is appropriate to get parents involved if you are being bullied. In the old days there were times you got Dads involved. For example, big kids stealing bikes or toys off little kids would sometimes find fathers on each others door steps squaring off. If kids were harrassed by bigger kids then a bigger brother would often get involved. My brother used to get the snot beaten out of him by a boy a year or two older than him. One day I followed my brother, caught the guy in action and applied my number 9 boot in his rear. Problem solved.

Not all kids are born equal or have equal skills in manipulating social media / technology. My son wouldnt know how to beat a cyber bully at their own game - however I am sure he would know how to beat him in a physical match. If my son were physically crippled and beaten by others you better believe I would get involved. My son is not physically crippled, but he is not cyber savy. His brawn works better than his mouth. Is it not old fashioned to stand up for him in this area?

DonGould

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#795271 8-Apr-2013 21:50

nunz: In effect I bullied them back - I used a big stick to threaten them with. It worked. What would have been nicer is if the parents and school had done thier job and my services were not required. Hopefully decent legislation and guidelines, clear policies and processes etc will render my services un-necessary. I certainly hope so.

The really ironic aspect of this is that bullying is meet by bullying in this case.

If, under the new legislation, you bully someone, then you get locked in a prison. With this legislation you are effectively being bullied to change your behaviour with a thread. We know that in jail you will find people who will pick on you, that's the nature of jail and it's well understood.

I currently wonder if the biggest issue in the whole question is simply that people just don't take mental health issues seriously.

I just read over the ministers paper that Internet New Zealand sent out this afternoon.

I was very interested to note that under 'Disability considerations' there was nothing listed.

Many of us on the net know that people who are disruptive are often also those who have mental health disabilities, yet this isn't even being considered.

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