Who should I vote for?

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#1834487 31-Jul-2017 18:38

@Rikkitic:

..... I said I would remain open to all suggestions for my vote, ................. but I am now crossing Labour off the list.

So just what exactly has happened to the Labour Party to change your mind over the past two and a half days? Have they announced a major change of party direction?

Rikkitic

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#1834527 31-Jul-2017 20:29

According to the article I quoted, the Labour leader himself has now gone on record stating that they don't have a chance and he is probably the wrong man for the job. If even he thinks that, why should I feel any differently?

Labour has repeatedly and consistently flubbed its chances since Phil Goff was leader. It has failed to live up to its responsibility to be an effective opposition. The last poll, and Little's response to it, is what decided me.

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Wiggum

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#1834537 31-Jul-2017 21:02

@Rikkitic: Labour has spent years dicking around with itself and letting down all the voters who were counting on it to offer a better way. They fully deserve to die, and the sooner the better. I said I would remain open to all suggestions for my vote, but I am now crossing Labour off the list. They need to hand the reins to a real political party and quit wasting people's time.

@Rikkitic: the Labour leader himself has now gone on record stating that they don't have a chance and he is probably the wrong man for the job. If even he thinks that, why should I feel any differently?

Labour has repeatedly and consistently flubbed its chances since Phil Goff was leader. It has failed to live up to its responsibility to be an effective opposition. The last poll, and Little's response to it, is what decided me.

Metiria Turei's went on record and confessed to benefit fraud. Interested to hear if the greens are still on your list?

I'm no labour supporter, but I do rate them higher than the Greens.

MikeB4

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#1834545 31-Jul-2017 21:33

We are heading for a messed up Parliament and a further election within two years.

Geektastic

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#1834557 31-Jul-2017 22:16

Just as an experiment, I have deliberately read no "news" sites in NZ nor watched TV news (well, I rarely do that anyway) on NZ channels for at least 4 weeks now (and in the case of TV news, probably 12 months) to see if I actually felt I was missing out on anything.

I have read international news sites and seen international news TV like BBC World and CNN.

In all honesty I do not feel I have missed any more than I have by never watching a whole episode of Shortland Street....!

Edit - I should add for completeness that I have caught the odd news bulletin on RNZ National when in the car.

amiga500

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#1834565 31-Jul-2017 22:27

Helen Clarke and John Key were superb on RNZ Morning Report. David Shearer and Andrew Little are equally terrible. Once Shearer had quit the leadership he was quite good when answering questions on foreign affairs.

Rikkitic

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#1834625 1-Aug-2017 00:53

@Wiggum:

Metiria Turei's went on record and confessed to benefit fraud. Interested to hear if the greens are still on your list?

I'm no labour supporter, but I do rate them higher than the Greens.

You and a couple of others keep hammering on about this so I finally decided to read up on it a little. As I expected, there is more than one side to this story. I haven't got through everything, but I have seen enough to know that the most 'shocking' aspects of the story, like her having received more than $50,000 she was not entitled to, may well be more than a little embellished. I don't know for certain. I haven't got far enough into the material yet. But there is certainly a basis for some doubt.

People cherry-pick the things they want to believe. Those who want to feel outraged seize upon the most outrageous bits and recirculate them, giving them a life of their own. Some parts of the story are certainly beyond dispute. Others are less certain, but don't let that get in the way of self-righteous indignation.

I crossed Labour off my list because I feel let down by them. They are supposed to be the opposition, which is an important position in democratic politics, and they have frittered it away. National may or may not be the best party to form a government, but they shouldn't have it by default. Labour had a job to do and they didn't do it.

The Greens may well take over as the opposition, but until now they haven't had that responsibility so they also don't carry the blame. That is the difference.

As far as Metiria Turei goes, you keep wanting to turn this into a black and white issue, but I don't think it is. I didn't think that before, and I definitely don't think it after the reading I have done. In fact, I am more inclined than I was to give her the benefit of the doubt.

Having said that, there is no question that she did knowingly accept benefit money she wasn't entitled to. She herself has made that clear. But there are other ways of looking at that, and some people see it in a different light than you do. You clearly have a very strong opinion about it, but just because you believe something strongly, doesn't mean that is the only possible truth.

I believe in the rule of law. I believe respect for the law is essential to avoid chaos and anarchy. But I also believe that the rule of law depends on laws being just and fair and reasonable. Not all laws are. I do not believe respect for the law should be absolute. I believe there are cases when breaking the law might be the lesser of evils. I am not saying that is the case here. I don't know. I am just saying it is a principle that I believe in.

So yes, the Greens are still on my list.

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tdgeek

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#1834631 1-Aug-2017 07:13

@Rikkitic:

@Wiggum:

Metiria Turei's went on record and confessed to benefit fraud. Interested to hear if the greens are still on your list?

I'm no labour supporter, but I do rate them higher than the Greens.

You and a couple of others keep hammering on about this so I finally decided to read up on it a little. As I expected, there is more than one side to this story. I haven't got through everything, but I have seen enough to know that the most 'shocking' aspects of the story, like her having received more than $50,000 she was not entitled to, may well be more than a little embellished. I don't know for certain. I haven't got far enough into the material yet. But there is certainly a basis for some doubt.

People cherry-pick the things they want to believe. Those who want to feel outraged seize upon the most outrageous bits and recirculate them, giving them a life of their own. Some parts of the story are certainly beyond dispute. Others are less certain, but don't let that get in the way of self-righteous indignation.

I crossed Labour off my list because I feel let down by them. They are supposed to be the opposition, which is an important position in democratic politics, and they have frittered it away. National may or may not be the best party to form a government, but they shouldn't have it by default. Labour had a job to do and they didn't do it.

The Greens may well take over as the opposition, but until now they haven't had that responsibility so they also don't carry the blame. That is the difference.

As far as Metiria Turei goes, you keep wanting to turn this into a black and white issue, but I don't think it is. I didn't think that before, and I definitely don't think it after the reading I have done. In fact, I am more inclined than I was to give her the benefit of the doubt.

Having said that, there is no question that she did knowingly accept benefit money she wasn't entitled to. She herself has made that clear. But there are other ways of looking at that, and some people see it in a different light than you do. You clearly have a very strong opinion about it, but just because you believe something strongly, doesn't mean that is the only possible truth.

I believe in the rule of law. I believe respect for the law is essential to avoid chaos and anarchy. But I also believe that the rule of law depends on laws being just and fair and reasonable. Not all laws are. I do not believe respect for the law should be absolute. I believe there are cases when breaking the law might be the lesser of evils. I am not saying that is the case here. I don't know. I am just saying it is a principle that I believe in.

So yes, the Greens are still on my list.

And she wasnt found out, caught, nabbed. She put her career on the line to show the state of being a beneficiary, knowing full well that there will be fallout. Certainly not excusing her actions, but as I referred others to in this thread, and no one responded, funny that, no one wants to talk about the others who were found out and are still MP's

tdgeek

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#1834632 1-Aug-2017 07:19

@MikeB4:

We are heading for a messed up Parliament and a further election within two years.

I dont see that at all. I do see ineffective parties across the board though

Greens. They cant seem to get much action, will they if they were in a governing coalition? Potentially

Labour. Ineffective leader. Unsure what the rest of them are like, as we just get drilled on the leader

National. Housing crisis, poor infrastructure, let the market rule and ignore any responses.

So, not really a lot to see here. Many of the positives and negatives are a global effect on us being so small, so probably no real issue who governs, unless anyone will step up and do what they can for NZ for a change. Clean Green NZ would be a change

tdgeek

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#1834635 1-Aug-2017 07:28

I reckon Little is out today

If he stays in, Labours vote declines, if he's out that instability would probably have the same effect. But if the new leader IS a leader and gets stuck in, there might be some rejuvenation there. Its a no risk option.

MikeB4

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#1834637 1-Aug-2017 07:32

@tdgeek:
@MikeB4:

We are heading for a messed up Parliament and a further election within two years.

I dont see that at all. I do see ineffective parties across the board though

Greens. They cant seem to get much action, will they if they were in a governing coalition? Potentially

Labour. Ineffective leader. Unsure what the rest of them are like, as we just get drilled on the leader

National. Housing crisis, poor infrastructure, let the market rule and ignore any responses.

So, not really a lot to see here. Many of the positives and negatives are a global effect on us being so small, so probably no real issue who governs, unless anyone will step up and do what they can for NZ for a change. Clean Green NZ would be a change

I think a better term I should have used was Lame Duck Parliament.

MikeB4

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#1834639 1-Aug-2017 07:34

@tdgeek:
I reckon Little is out today

If he stays in, Labours vote declines, if he's out that instability would probably have the same effect. But if the new leader IS a leader and gets stuck in, there might be some rejuvenation there. Its a no risk option.

I remember Jim Bolger doing this and then going up in hr polls. Sometimes silence really is golden.

tdgeek

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#1834642 1-Aug-2017 07:45

@MikeB4:
@tdgeek:

@MikeB4:

We are heading for a messed up Parliament and a further election within two years.

I dont see that at all. I do see ineffective parties across the board though

Greens. They cant seem to get much action, will they if they were in a governing coalition? Potentially

Labour. Ineffective leader. Unsure what the rest of them are like, as we just get drilled on the leader

National. Housing crisis, poor infrastructure, let the market rule and ignore any responses.

So, not really a lot to see here. Many of the positives and negatives are a global effect on us being so small, so probably no real issue who governs, unless anyone will step up and do what they can for NZ for a change. Clean Green NZ would be a change

I think a better term I should have used was Lame Duck Parliament.

Agreed. Maybe behind each leader there is some real talent who wants to make a difference, havent seen that yet though, but its probably there waiting for an opportunity

MikeB4

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#1834649 1-Aug-2017 07:54

Career wise I think it is too early for Jacinda Arden but absolutely believe she is a PM in waiting. A better choice if Labour is going to risk a change this close to an election would be Grant Robertson and leave Jacinda Arden in the deputy role.

Geektastic

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#1834675 1-Aug-2017 09:00

MikeB4:

Career wise I think it is too early for Jacinda Arden but absolutely believe she is a PM in waiting. A better choice if Labour is going to risk a change this close to an election would be Grant Robertson and leave Jacinda Arden in the deputy role.

'In waiting' is the very best place for Labour PM's to be...!

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