Free speech turnaround

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#2060811 23-Jul-2018 09:20

tdgeek:

I dont see any welcoming or red carpet. They qualified. Immigration said they qualified, and while they strongly disagree with their MO, they qualified. They cant seem to find a venue. Maybe they will. The audience will be a portion of like idiots, satisfying themselves. Likely to be more protesters bitching at them. They will get the audience they deserve, then they are gone.

The immigration minister has stated that they hadn't been denied entry to another country. She had - she was denied entry to the UK and sent packing.

These are some of the "character grounds".

You will be denied a visa if you:

have ever been removed, excluded or deported from any country.

You will also not be granted a visa if we have reason to believe you:

are likely to commit an offence in New Zealand that is punishable by imprisonment
are likely to be a risk to security
are likely to be a threat to public order
are likely to be a risk to the public interest.

So what's the bottom line? None?

6FIEND

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#2060845 23-Jul-2018 09:57

Rikkitic:

We are not talking about free speech here. We are talking about people advocating evil things, supported by people willing to employ any means. Yes, there is also violence and ugliness by the protestors, but that seems to be the only thing you guys want to fixate on.

I haven't seen or heard anything from either of these speakers. But there seems to be a majority view (both here in the Geekzone Politics forum and in the wider community) that their message is so evil/whatever-adjective-you-want-to-use, that society should consider breaking its own rules to prevent them from being heard.

Would you please provide me with a link to the offensive material? Feel free to PM me if you'd rather not "broadcast" the hate, but I would be interested to read/hear what it is that has caused such concern.

You're right, the behaviour of the protesters (and supporters) have been abhorrent at times, and there's plenty of "media" telling us all sorts of things that are wrong with these speakers... But I'm wondering what these guys have *actually* said that is so divisive?

Edit: Request is open to everyone btw :-)

tdgeek

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#2060848 23-Jul-2018 09:59

Fred99:

tdgeek:

I dont see any welcoming or red carpet. They qualified. Immigration said they qualified, and while they strongly disagree with their MO, they qualified. They cant seem to find a venue. Maybe they will. The audience will be a portion of like idiots, satisfying themselves. Likely to be more protesters bitching at them. They will get the audience they deserve, then they are gone.

The immigration minister has stated that they hadn't been denied entry to another country. She had - she was denied entry to the UK and sent packing.

These are some of the "character grounds".

You will be denied a visa if you:

have ever been removed, excluded or deported from any country.
You will also not be granted a visa if we have reason to believe you:

are likely to commit an offence in New Zealand that is punishable by imprisonment
are likely to be a risk to security
are likely to be a threat to public order
are likely to be a risk to the public interest.
So what's the bottom line? None?

She was denied entry, yes. many others are as well after doing a Google on her and UK, some others for anti immigration stances. The reasons are broad as quoted

In a statement about the activists, a Home Office spokesperson said: "Border Force has the power to refuse entry to an individual if it is considered that his or her presence in the UK is not conducive to the public good."

So, why was Trump allowed?? His impact far outweighs Southern or the others by a wide margin. Seems that the UK has set a low bar that it can exercise as they choose. But they dont exercise it, it seems.

For NZ, she comp,lies as per Immigration NZ.

Rikkitic

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#2060864 23-Jul-2018 10:39

6FIEND:

I haven't seen or heard anything from either of these speakers. But there seems to be a majority view (both here in the Geekzone Politics forum and in the wider community) that their message is so evil/whatever-adjective-you-want-to-use, that society should consider breaking its own rules to prevent them from being heard.

Would you please provide me with a link to the offensive material? Feel free to PM me if you'd rather not "broadcast" the hate, but I would be interested to read/hear what it is that has caused such concern.

You're right, the behaviour of the protesters (and supporters) have been abhorrent at times, and there's plenty of "media" telling us all sorts of things that are wrong with these speakers... But I'm wondering what these guys have *actually* said that is so divisive?

Edit: Request is open to everyone btw :-)

You only have to do a simple Google search. Asking for links seems a bit disingenuous.

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freitasm

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#2060870 23-Jul-2018 10:41

I did a YouTube search and the first few results were about her claiming multiculturalism is bad - and in the example of Australia it shouldn't be a doctrine we live for - the future will see Australia going the same way of France and German and everyone is going to end up having to abide by laws made by immigrants, with certain doom to the white people living there.

Pumpedd

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#2060886 23-Jul-2018 11:03

freitasm:

I did a YouTube search and the first few results were about her claiming multiculturalism is bad - and in the example of Australia it shouldn't be a doctrine we live for - the future will see Australia going the same way of France and German and everyone is going to end up having to abide by laws made by immigrants, with certain doom to the white people living there.

I dont find that view offensive even though I dont share it.

There are many many people in the world that share that view. Some publicise it, others keep it to themselves. Its my opinion that Australia has a shocking track record on immigration and indigenous affairs. But what isnt publicised much is Australias immigration numbers are quite large. They simply want to choose who they allow in and not have people smugglers decide for them. So complex.

Fred99

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#2060913 23-Jul-2018 11:18

tdgeek:

So, why was Trump allowed??

That's totally irrelevant. There are special visa categories for government officials and diplomats etc.

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Rikkitic

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#2060920 23-Jul-2018 11:27

Pumpedd:

freitasm:

I did a YouTube search and the first few results were about her claiming multiculturalism is bad - and in the example of Australia it shouldn't be a doctrine we live for - the future will see Australia going the same way of France and German and everyone is going to end up having to abide by laws made by immigrants, with certain doom to the white people living there.

I dont find that view offensive even though I dont share it.

That is only one of her brain farts. Both of them mourn the fall of apartheid in South Africa and are convinced that white genocide is on the way. They are racist stirrers and inciters, along with a whole host of other nasty things.

When I was young, I wasted a hell of a lot of my time reading stuff I didn't need to know and trying to come to grips with stuff like printer handshaking protocols just because I was curious about them. Now that I am older and the amount of life I have left is much less than the amount I have already lived, I don't have much patience for that kind of thing. I don't need to plough through pages and pages of brain-dead racist ranting or to waste my precious seconds listening to the verbal vomit of some screwed-up opportunistic loony tune. A few sentences is enough to tell me there are better things to do, like bond with my cat or enjoy the early spring flowers. I don't need to shower in someone else's hate-filled frustrated spewings.

Apart from being simply unpleasant, these people seem to be obsessed with the disappearance of the white race. As far as I am concerned, it can't come soon enough. Once we all have the same copper brown skin hue, hopefully we can put this stupid crap behind us once and for all. Multiracial marriage rocks!

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6FIEND

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#2060921 23-Jul-2018 11:29

freitasm:

I did a YouTube search and the first few results were about her claiming multiculturalism is bad - and in the example of Australia it shouldn't be a doctrine we live for - the future will see Australia going the same way of France and German and everyone is going to end up having to abide by laws made by immigrants, with certain doom to the white people living there.

There is plenty of evidence that multiculturalism can lead to poor outcomes. Examples are numerous, from London's escalating crime wave, Sweden's Vulnerable Areas, Germany's NYE sexual assaults, etc.

Is calling attention to that the issue here? Or was there something they said that was testing the limits of "hate speech" as we currently define it?

6FIEND

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#2060929 23-Jul-2018 11:37

Rikkitic:

That is only one of her brain farts. Both of them mourn the fall of apartheid in South Africa and are convinced that white genocide is on the way. They are racist stirrers and inciters, along with a whole host of other nasty things.

I also did a quick google search for Southern and Racism... Ironically, it would seem, the top stories were how she had upset the "Alt-Right" because she dated a black man... That doesn't trike me as particularly racist behaviour?

Rikkitic:

Apart from being simply unpleasant, these people seem to be obsessed with the disappearance of the white race. As far as I am concerned, it can't come soon enough.

OK, now THAT is crossing the line! it is 100% racism.

I'm out.

freitasm

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#2060930 23-Jul-2018 11:37

6FIEND:

There is plenty of evidence that multiculturalism can lead to poor outcomes. Examples are numerous, from London's escalating crime wave, Sweden's Vulnerable Areas, Germany's NYE sexual assaults, etc.

What evidence is there that these "crime waves", "vulnerable areas" aren't the results of racism in itself by insulating these populations that should be included?

Have you read lately about those reports of white people calling the police on black Americans for just being there? A woman calls the police because a black boy is selling lemonade. A nehgbour calls the police because a black man is opening his own juice store in San Francisco. Even in America, the land of the free, white people cry "discrimination" and call police on anything they see moving that's not white - even those who live and fought for the country.

Then someone comes around and start talking about "white genocide" and "multiculturalism failure" and you see nothing wrong with it?

tdgeek

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#2060933 23-Jul-2018 11:39

Fred99:

tdgeek:

So, why was Trump allowed??

That's totally irrelevant. There are special visa categories for government officials and diplomats etc.

While it would be ridiculous to ban Trump, its not totally irrelevant.

What would we do if a foreignor who has residency here but not citizenship was involved in a protest, say at the Nurses strike, and injured someone, does he/she get deported? What happens to a Kiwi that holds one of these alt-right meetings?

Who sets the bar? Might be a very left PM, might be a very right PM, it might be a PM whose education experience or life experience makes him/her liable to be relaxed with these people, or over zealous.

IMHO, the law works, Immigration has allowed them as they are within the law. Society has not allowed a venue, they from what I gather are not now coming. The law, the freedom of speech and our moral culture has decided they don't deserve a venue, no demand for them to be heard, nor desire. If you legislated that, thats quite a can of worms. Censorship. You would need to apply the same punishment to everyone, not just visa applications, and apply the same bar to different situations that some PM here has decided isnt fair. All that may change with different parties and PM in Govt

freitasm

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#2060934 23-Jul-2018 11:39

6FIEND:

Rikkitic:

Apart from being simply unpleasant, these people seem to be obsessed with the disappearance of the white race. As far as I am concerned, it can't come soon enough.

OK, now THAT is crossing the line! it is 100% racism.

I'm out.

Seriously, you made a point of excluding the rest of the quote to make it fit your purpose. Rikkitic quote in full makes it sound like the ideal would be a society where everyone is the same.

Twisting words is no way to talk here.

Rikkitic

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#2060936 23-Jul-2018 11:40

6FIEND:

There is plenty of evidence that multiculturalism can lead to poor outcomes. Examples are numerous, from London's escalating crime wave, Sweden's Vulnerable Areas, Germany's NYE sexual assaults, etc.

That is very one-sided. Every society that has allowed multiculturalism to flourish has been enriched by it. I won't go down the rabbit hole of citing examples, except to say that the Notting Hill Carnival should not be missed.

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MikeAqua

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#2060939 23-Jul-2018 11:54

The views of Southern and Molyneux repel me. They are so far from my values I can't think of a word. I can think of NZrs on the other side of the political spectrum who I find equally offensive and repellent - but they get to speak.

So I say: Let people speak, but apply the law to what they say. If they engage in hate speech or incite disorderly behaviour - arrest them, charge them etc. We have laws, which represent a reasonable balance of rights and responsibility. LKet the law set the standards for discourse.

The free speech coalition has influenced me in this regard. Partly because it contain people that politically have nothing in common. For example Chris Trotter and Don Brash are from a political perspective, diametrically opposed. Yet they agree on this.

I also think most NZrs are sensible enough to see these people for who they. There will of course be a minority of people who actually agree with them (already). One could argue those people aren't being changed by their visit, merely reinforced in their views.

Mike

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