Man shot dead by police, six injured, after stabbings at Auckland's LynnMall Countdown

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Forums › Politics › Man shot dead by police, six injured, after stabbings at Auckland's LynnMall Countdown

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Handle9

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#2773745 7-Sep-2021 15:37

Varkk:
Interesting article in The Guardian touching on some of the struggles this man faced. https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/sep/06/i-assessed-the-auckland-supermarket-terrorist-our-approach-has-to-change

I think some of the problem is trying to deal with him on the basis of terrorism needing to be stomped out rather than as a mental health issue needing treatment.

I think if this was mostly a mental health issue he'd currently be residing at the Mason Clinic and no one would have been stabbed.

He's been radicalised which isn't the same as being mentally unwell.

Handle9

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#2773747 7-Sep-2021 15:42

networkn:
Handle9:

No. As far as I understand it the state can not deliberately place someone in harm's way.

Well, now some of our citizens have ended up in harms way. They felt he was a credibly imminent threat. It's was probably no less theoretical than the harm he may come to if he was sent back from whence he came.

You will always have cases like this - it is a byproduct of the rule of law and laws being imperfect. It's not what should happen but it is to some degree inevitable.

It hasn't been seen as a priority to fix for 7 justice ministers, including Judith Collins, when the law society recommended it.

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#2773750 7-Sep-2021 15:43

I think we are currently unequipped to deal with the amount of support that refugees need. To be clear, I do support our decision to take in refugees, but also feel like the amount of support and attention and resources required to help acclimatize is massive. Many are incredibly vulnerable. My wife does medical work with some from time to time, and I recall her commenting that what was available to assist them and the myriad of issues some of them have, was pretty scary.

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#2773754 7-Sep-2021 15:52

Handle9:

You will always have cases like this - it is a byproduct of the rule of law and laws being imperfect. It's not what should happen but it is to some degree inevitable.

It hasn't been seen as a priority to fix for 7 justice ministers, including Judith Collins, when the law society recommended it.

To be fair, it is much more of an issue recently (The last 5 years particularly) than it was back then. There were significant reviews when Christchurch happened (reasonably so). It wouldn't seem unreasonable to have taken stock of our most at risk individuals at the time, and determine if we had the means to remove them if they presented an imminent threat.

There is a delicate balance to be struck here and admittedly it's a very complex situation, but like you say, we should have a mechanism for this.

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#2773760 7-Sep-2021 16:00

Handle9: I think if this was mostly a mental health issue he'd currently be residing at the Mason Clinic and no one would have been stabbed.

He's been radicalised which isn't the same as being mentally unwell.

I would say he was vulnerable to being radicalised due to the unresolved past trauma and resulting isolation.

gzt

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#2773874 7-Sep-2021 19:11

Varkk: Interesting article in The Guardian touching on some of the struggles this man faced. https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/sep/06/i-assessed-the-auckland-supermarket-terrorist-our-approach-has-to-change I think some of the problem is trying to deal with him on the basis of terrorism needing to be stomped out rather than as a mental health issue needing treatment.

Yes, interesting article. I read it very differently. The person who assessed him recommended he was placed into an already successful de-radicalisation programme. The writer claims the police opposed this course of action in favour of surveillance. It's not clear to me why it had to be one or the other.

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gzt

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#2773877 7-Sep-2021 19:21

A number of incorrect statements have been made in this topic regarding refugee status and the reasons he was not deported. Please familiarise yourself with the timeline:

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/450809/timeline-leading-to-terrorist-s-attack-in-new-lynn

freitasm

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#2773878 7-Sep-2021 19:24

gzt: A number of incorrect statements have been made in this topic regarding refugee status and the reasons he was not deported. Please familiarise yourself with the timeline:

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/450809/timeline-leading-to-terrorist-s-attack-in-new-lynn

The one posted here before is much longer and directly from the press release.

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#2773880 7-Sep-2021 19:31

This one is interesting:

Timeline: July 2020: The High Court rules the Crown cannot lay charges against Samsudeen under the Terrorism Suppression Act. The charge would have alleged Samsudeen, on or about August 9 2018, planned or otherwise prepared to cause death or serious bodily injury. But Justice Downs concluded that was not an offence under the law.

This puzzles me. 100% sure there is already tons of established criminal law dealing with intent to plan and intent to commit murder. Why not just turn around charge him under a different presumably criminal law act instead?

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#2773881 7-Sep-2021 19:40

freitasm: The one posted here before is much longer and directly from the press release.

That link does not contain the July 2020 event I posted above from the RNZ article. Strange.

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#2773882 7-Sep-2021 19:42

gzt: That link does not contain the July 2020 event I posted above from the RNZ article. Strange.

Yes, not clear where the RNZ got those dates if not from the official release.

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#2773885 7-Sep-2021 19:44

ODT also has July 16, 2020 date in timeline:

https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/auckland-mall-attack-terrorists-court-proceedings-released

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#2773886 7-Sep-2021 19:47

freitasm: Yes, not clear where the RNZ got those dates if not from the official release.

Release may have been prepared when suppression was still active.

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#2773887 7-Sep-2021 19:54

I see now. The July 2020 judgement at the high court was in relation to the crown's attempt to press terrorism charges in addition to the existing charges and sentence passed in relation to the events of 2018. The attempt failed because the law did not cover the circumstances prosecution claimed it did.

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#2773891 7-Sep-2021 20:05

Different timeline focused on police interaction from 2016:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckland-mall-terrorist-attack-timeline-of-attackers-time-in-new-zealand/CQTAHY3EL7TRT3SHGQLBTVNQTM/

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